Hurricane Katrina

[J-Man5]

I urge everyone to go to the http://www.redcross.org website and donate.  This is a time to step up and give where it hurts.  It seems like the Gulf coast has been pounded one too much the last couple of years.  I was wondering if Lochar had visited New Orleans recently.  If I remember correctly that the four hurricanes that hit Florida had been aimed at him.  

Just joking though.  Here in San Antonio and in Houston we are already reciving victims/refugees of Katrina and they are like shell shocked bomb attack victims. Their eyes are glazed and it will be many many years for them to recover from this.

Let me make a rant now on how I think it is absolutely iddiotic to talk of rebuilding that city while it lies in an area that is 6 or more feet below sea level.  It would be cheaper and more effective to move people 20-30 miles inland to higher ground.  Here in the central Texas area many have been flooded out of 50 and 100 year flood plains and the federal government and local governments have bought out that land and forced them to relocate.  The same should be done with New Orleans.  There is nothing there that is SO Historic or SO valuable to have to do this all again the next time a hurricane hits that area.

I know that there is much shipping and other commerce that goes on there but this problem stems from the fact that the Mississippi has been channelized and not allowed to flood it's banks in nearly 100 years.  It used to be that the river would lay down more silt and deposit it to raise the level of the land back up.  But this has not been allowed to happen naturally.  The time and money and energy should be better spent on helping people start a new life at a new location.  This is from experience speaking and dealing with flood victims in the Texas Hill Country and in Houston.  Many houses would have been faster and cheaper to knock down and rebuild than to recover and renovate.  They are never the same.

Thanks for letting me rant.

J-Man5

[Lochar]

I urge everyone to go to the http://www.redcross.org website and donate.  This is a time to step up and give where it hurts.  It seems like the Gulf coast has been pounded one too much the last couple of years.  I was wondering if Lochar had visited New Orleans recently.  If I remember correctly that the four hurricanes that hit Florida had been aimed at him.

No, I haven't been to New Orleans recently, but it was were my Dad got into his wreck about a year and a half ago, covering 28% of his body with 2nd and 3rd degree burns.

Maybe it was a delayed reaction trying to get enough water to cool him off?


And yes, I know, sick joke.  Sorry.

[J-Man5]

No, I haven't been to New Orleans recently, but it was were my Dad got into his wreck about a year and a half ago, covering 28% of his body with 2nd and 3rd degree burns.

Hope he's doing ok.  I won't say alright or good because it takes a long time to recover from something like that.

J-Man5

[Lochar]

He's about done with surgeries and whatnot now.  Thanks.

[Were_Fan]

  First, I do feel sorry for the majority of folks trapped in the nightmarish conditions on the Gulf coast.  They are the ones UNABLE to leave because they are poor and have no car to drive out of town.  Also inclkuded is the sick, elderly and others who were simply UNABLE to evacuate.

 However, the looters, robbers and other criminals that stayed behind because they saw opportunity could be zapped from the face of the earth and I wouldn't shed a single tear.  As for tourists and rubberneckers that still went to New Orleans when it was in the path of a (then) Category 5 hurricane, then the gene pool should now be better off intelligence wise since the "stupidity gene" proved fatal this time.

<history lesson on>
 Way back in prehistoric times (mid 1970's) when WereFan was a teenager, he visited both New Orleans and Biloxi Mississippi on a tour.  That was over 35 years ago.  Much of what  I saw at that time will have been destroyed by Katrina.  It was totally unnecessary.

 I remember riding on the bus in New Orleans and looking UP at a ship on the water side of a levee.  The New Orleans tour guide told us at that time that everybody knew that the levees would fail some day.  35 years later, the nightmare became reality.  Why were the levees not built higher?  One explanation is that the Corp. of Engineers didn't have enough Federal funding.  Sorry, but if New Orleans wants to live in a "bowl" below sea level, let THEM pay for higher levees instead of using MY tax dollars to live in a dangerous area.  Also, New Orleans is built on the Mississippi River delta mud and sinks about 1/2 inch a year.  Levee building will be a never ending process.  The New Orleans residents KNEW about the problem for decades.  Don't dole out federal dollars for their stupidity.

 In Biloxi, we stayed at a motel that was across the highway from the beach.  There was a partially destroyed concrete block building on the beach side that was damaged in a previous hurricane.  History repeated itself and destroyed a lot of gulf coast buildings.  Why do they not build stronger buildings in hurricane prone areas?  Perhaps thay know that the Feds and charities will bail them out and re-build flimsy buildings for them to be blown down again in the next hurricane.  Surprisingly, some buildings over a hundred years old survive due to thicker walls and sturdier construction all around.

  The Federal government finally woke up on the flood plain issue and no longer insures flood prone property.  However, I don't see that it is the governments responsibility to buy people's people's property because they decided to build it in a flood and/or hurricane prone area.

 Also, it should be mandatory at the federal level that sturdier construction be used in hurricane areas.  Insurance companies should refuse to insure flimsy construction.  If that means reinforced concrete walls then so be it.
</rant off>

--
Jim

[Shadowhawk]

What's more, people building on flood prone areas are not only danger to themselves, but to others as well, especially if the areas are meant to be flooded to make water lower.

Case: the flood in Poland, which inundated the city of Wroclaw (Breslau). There were some areas meant to be flooded by breaking the levees to lower the water level, and lessen the flood... but they were built upon, the people living there protested against being flooded. Well, the flood prone areas were flooded anyway, but the old city of Breslau, with many relic, was flooded quite high, unnecessary high.

[Phantom]

What's more, people building on flood prone areas are not only danger to themselves, but to others as well, especially if the areas are meant to be flooded to make water lower.

Case: the flood in Poland, which inundated the city of Wroclaw (Breslau). There were some areas meant to be flooded by breaking the levees to lower the water level, and lessen the flood... but they were built upon, the people living there protested against being flooded. Well, the flood prone areas were flooded anyway, but the old city of Breslau, with many relic, was flooded quite high, unnecessary high.

But shade that includes most of the older citys in the world.
All were built mostly on the Shores of an Ocean or the sides and flood plain of rivers and some lakes....this was done  

1. for Water Drinking, Bathing, cooking and cleaning....
 
2. for Transportation of people, equipment and Supplys ...as well as communication at times.

Now Days we Have Dams, Levies, and Flood walls to Tame or control Rivers and such

In costal areas they do erosion control, Sea walls and wave breakers  excetra.  

The Point being Most places are that way.

Hell a Few years ago most of Iowa was under water I guess we need to tell everyone in Iowa to move to some other State ?  Alot of Iowa is flood plain  

Hey Stuff happens ...New Orleans couldn't have been Saved even if there was a plan in place ...

The Electric failed ....

The pumps stoped....

The Levies failed

Any plan for New Oreans  would have included getting Help from MS an AL as well as TX.  

Big shock Ms and AL aren't in any shape to help right now... That means any plan would have failed any ways

The problem right now is Logistic's more then anything
Getting the stuff there and you have to work from the outside in setting up needed areas as you go..

Fueling stations are a big one Trucks, Cars, and Helicopters need Fuel and lots of it...

It's hard to pull into the local 7-11 or quick shop for gas when they just aren't there anymore.
 
Not much is left working down there....

The Last poroblem is New Orleans is about the Furthest from where all of this stuff is comming from so it will take longer for it to get there.

Hell the Crews were having to cut trees off of the roads before they could even drive through as well as having to repair them in some cases they have to rebuild bridges as well.
 
Look at how many steams and rivers there are in Louisiana a lot of the State is Swampland and byous and such.

Sorry to rant on ....just my 2 cents worth.

Hell even if everything went like clock work people would be complaining about that too...  

Lets Face it folks look at the big picture 3 States were hit and hit Hard...not 1 or 2 but 3 ....they comprise a lot of area think about that for a bit.  

It's easy for us to sit back and monday morning quarterback on what should have been done...

Hell what should have been done was years ago the Money should have been spent to Fix the problems

But it didn't happen...lets point fingers

But in truth it's everyone in the US's fault we don't want to have to pay more in Taxes or we're too busy to Vote....Ect

Getting down from the soap box now ....


Phantom  

[Were_Fan]

But shade that includes most of the older citys in the world.
All were built mostly on the Shores of an Ocean or the sides and flood plain of rivers and some lakes....this was done

But most of those cities were not built on river delta mud like New Orleans.  The only exception I can think of is Venice.  The Netherlands is a whole different matter and I really don't want to go there! <grin>

1. for Water Drinking, Bathing, cooking and cleaning....

2. for Transportation of people, equipment and Supplys ...as well as communication at times.

Now Days we Have Dams, Levies, and Flood walls to Tame or control Rivers and such

  Unfortunately, the levees and dams are what is causing the problem along our rivers.  After dams were built, rivers accumulated silt so they are no longer able to carry the same volume of water.  Leves have "reclaimed" fertile botom land from river basins for farming.  Unfortunately, the bottom lands used to flood yearly with the excess water.  Now we are getting record river levels.

In costal areas they do erosion control, Sea walls and wave breakers excetra.

The Point being Most places are that way.

Hell a Few years ago most of Iowa was under water I guess we need to tell everyone in Iowa to move to some other State ? Alot of Iowa is flood plain

 You have been severely misinformed.  While many square miles of Iowa (and Illinois) flooded along the Mississippi, it was a small percentage of Iowa's (and Illinois) area.  The Great Flood Of 1993 was the result of an unusually wet wet weather spell and should not be compared to the yearly hurricane season.  My National Guard company assisted in the sand bagging effort on the Illinois side. Want to see some pictures?

http://www.cgrer.uiowa.edu/research/exh ... flood.html

Hey Stuff happens ...New Orleans couldn't have been Saved even if there was a plan in place ...

The Electric failed ....

The pumps stoped....

The Levies failed

Any plan for New Oreans would have included getting Help from MS an AL as well as TX.

 No.  They should have planned and built for a class 5 hurricane.  If the levees were higher, they wouldn't have been flooded, pumps or no pumps.  Remember, a New Orleans tour guide told me 35 years ago that they knew they were on "borowed time".  They have had several decades to build higher levees.  However, it appears that they have planned on letting the federal government pay for their folly.  I've already seen blame layed on the Corp of Engineeres for budget cutbacks.  Yup, it is all the Fed's fault because New Orleans is sinking into the mud and the Feds won't pay for bigger levees.  I'm not a "bible thumper" but I remember from the Bible, a book a few thousand years old, that you don't build houses on sand.

Big shock Ms and AL aren't in any shape to help right now... That means any plan would have failed any ways

 The problem is that the correct plans are not being made.  You need to plan to minimize damage and that means sturdier buildings.   You can go through hurricane areas and see very old but sturdily built buildings survive.  Even modern concrete domes seem to fare very well according to the dome manufacturers web site.

The problem right now is Logistic's more then anything
Getting the stuff there and you have to work from the outside in setting up needed areas as you go..

  I heartily agree.  On top of that, throw in all the red tape that some are experiencing and you have a logistics nightmare.  For instance, a multimillion mobile hospital unit is stranded outside the area because officials won't let them in.

Fueling stations are a big one Trucks, Cars, and Helicopters need Fuel and lots of it...

It's hard to pull into the local 7-11 or quick shop for gas when they just aren't there anymore.

Not much is left working down there....

The Last poroblem is New Orleans is about the Furthest from where all of this stuff is comming from so it will take longer for it to get there.

Hell the Crews were having to cut trees off of the roads before they could even drive through as well as having to repair them in some cases they have to rebuild bridges as well.

Look at how many steams and rivers there are in Louisiana a lot of the State is Swampland and byous and such.

Sorry to rant on ....just my 2 cents worth.

Hell even if everything went like clock work people would be complaining about that too...

Lets Face it folks look at the big picture 3 States were hit and hit Hard...not 1 or 2 but 3 ....they comprise a lot of area think about that for a bit.

It's easy for us to sit back and monday morning quarterback on what should have been done...

Hell what should have been done was years ago the Money should have been spent to Fix the problems

But it didn't happen...lets point fingers

But in truth it's everyone in the US's fault we don't want to have to pay more in Taxes or we're too busy to Vote....Ect

Getting down from the soap box now ....


Phantom

  There is a lot of finger pointing going on as "victims" try to put blame everywhere but where it belongs.  They decided to build and live in an area that was a disaster waiting to happen.  Now it is everybody's fault except their own.

 Not enough Federal money spent on levees.  My answer to that is why doesn't New Orleans have a special tax to build up the levees?  Why should my/our tax dollars be spent to protect them from their folly.

 Not enough or bad plans to evacuate.  Well, folks, you KNEW there was a category 5 huricane coming and you knew that the levees wouldn't hold.  Why did you not get out of town? (this is NOT about the poor folks with no cars, the sick, etc)

 Bad plans to assist them out of their swamp.  Bad plans this, bad plans that.  It makes me sick to think about it since it could have ALL been avoided with beter levees.  Reminds me of a guy at work who stuck his finger into machinery and got it ripped of.  Of course, it was the company's fault since they didn't tell him not to put his fingers in moving machinery.
--
Jim

[sOmeone]

 No.  They should have planned and built for a class 5 hurricane.

They planed the current stuff for a cat 3 hurricane.

[Shadowhawk]

I have heard that Louisiana is one of he poorest states...

[Fiferguy]

There is a lot of finger pointing going on as "victims" try to put blame everywhere but where it belongs.  They decided to build and live in an area that was a disaster waiting to happen.  Now it is everybody's fault except their own.

But if you think about it, EVERYONE lives in a place where a disaster is waiting to happen.  No matter where you live, there are natural and unnatural disasters that are waiting to happen.  Is building a house below sea level on a hurricane prone coast the wisest thing in the world?  Probably not, but is building in Tornado Alley any better?  Is living in an area prone to massive lake-effect snow any better?  An area prone to mudslides, blizzards, avalanches, forest fires, grass fires, etc?

I could go on, but you get my point.  Everyone lives in a place that has a chance for a natural desaster.  And it only takes one to totally destroy a town.  Yet people come back.

Another example of this outside of New Orleans is Moore, Oklahoma.  In 1999, a Category 5 tornado came through Moore, Oklahoma City, Midwest City, and completely destroyed much of Stroud before lifting off the ground.  People in those cities came back though.  Over a billion dollars of damage was done from that one tornado.

In 1992, a massive late season blizzard crippled much of the northeast US.  Yet people stay there.

We've already discussed the flood of 1993.

And these are just natural disasters that I've lived through.

So all in all, where you live is not something to blame.  Should they have built above sea level, probably, but no matter where you put your house, eventually something is going to happen.  It's like saying that someone is going to die.  We all are, eventually.  When or where are the only questions, but it will happen.

Unless you're a 9ft. tall werecat...

Fifer

[Hearly]

Fiferguy, I think the problem isn't so much that they "build" in potential disaster area's, I think it's the Government's fault for always assuming it will never happen..

For example Bush cut the Army Corp of Eng. Budget last year,  they are the ones responsible for mantaining the levy's etc..

Now I'm not saying spending billions of dollars on trying to make something 100% safe which is impossible, but there are plenty of examples in the world on how to build levy's that prevent a lot of what happened in New Orleans which would have not cost that much, but the gov't didn't feel it was nessasary..

One Important thing that came out of this, It just shows how much We are ill prepared for another terrorist attack, I mean it took them 4 days just to get food/water into people when the roads were pretty much cleared (to the convention center) What happens if a Dirty bomb or heck even a full nuke goes off someplace.. All the Money they've spent on Homeland defense, seems to be very much a joke, if Katrina is any example of how the Fed Gov't responds to a disaster...

[J-Man5]

Well I'm personally still waiting for domed cities.  New Orleans should be one of the first or second as it will be underwater for a while.  But ever sice I was a child TV has been promising undersea domed cities.  Seems like theres nothing to lose at this point.  

Even on this board we can see the problem and all we can do is point fingers.  My first post showed what we individually can do.  http://www.redcross.org Also do what you can to improve your own neighborhood in case of a disaster. And always, always volunteer.

J-Man5

[Were_Fan]

They planed the current stuff for a cat 3 hurricane.

 Ummm, yup!  I knew that.  More importently, "New Orleans" knew that.  That is why I posted that they should have planned for a class 5 hurricane.  They KNEW about the risk for decades.  However, they just talked about it instead of building levees.  Talk, talk, talk but no work, work, work.  Now it is everybody's fault except their own that the disaster they KNEW was coming finally happened.

 I don't know how much higher the storm surge was than the levees but I suspect it was but a few feet.  A hundred guys in my National Guard company built up a levee on the Illinois River a few feet in a week or so and helped save a community.  That wasn't the Great Flood of 1993 but it was another very unusual wet streak of weather.

    I don't know how much higher the New Orleans storm surge was than the levees but I suspect it was only a few feet.  A hundred guys in my National Guard company and a lot of volunteers built up a levee on the Illinois River a few feet in a week or so and saved a community and surrounding farmland.

 Let us ask some pertinent questions instead of blaming the Feds.  Where was the Louisana National Guard in the days before the storm hit?  They were all at home talking about New Orleans getting flooded some day.

  Where were the volunteers to help with sandbagging?  They were all at home talking about New Orleans getting flooded some day.

 Had the New Orleans mayor requested assistance BEFORE the storm hit?   No, he stayed at home and griped about not getting any federal assistance.   Now, he is pointing a finger at everyone else while his other fingers are pointing back at him

Unfortunately, everyone else gets to pay for New Orleans folly.

--
Jim

[Were_Fan]

I have heard that Louisiana is one of he poorest states...

Income rankings by state:
http://www.unm.edu/~bber/econ/us-pci.htm

 Yes, Louisana is one of the poorest states.  Their 2004 average income  ranking was #42.  Mississippi was last at $24,650.  However, that doesn't excuse New Orleans residents and companies spending billions of dollars for buildings but failing to protect themselves.

 They KNEW this was going to happen for DECADES.  I've seen comparisons to tornados in the Plains States.  New Orleans hurricane was NOT like tornados in the Plains where you can go a lifetime and NEVER experience a tornado.  Ditto for floods, freak blizzards, etc.  Those are all UNEXPECTED events while levee failure in New Orleans was EXPECTED.

 I will mention a few things about tornados.  I have been trained as an emergency disaster volunteer for several years.  That includes manmade and natural disasters.  I have responded to one tornado.  Houses could be built stronger to survive some weaker tornados.  Little things like using anchor plates rather than "toenailing" on the roof and second story can mean the difference between weathering a weaker tornado or losing the roof or second story.  Leave the windows CLOSED if a tornado is expected.

 Please visit http://www.nooa.gov and check out tips on the weather service for more info.  Want a weather snapshot for central Illinois?  My page at http://jbstolin.home.att.net/w_ilx.htm gives you that and increases coverage distance as you scroll down.  Hurricane Maria can be seen on that web page in last 2 photos.  Let me know if you would like a similar page for your area.

--
Jim