On the origin of species (interplanetary edition)

[boballab]

That's the thing about the Kimdori, we don't know how old that race is or when they first went into space. Also with Kimdori sharing the Denmother could have knowledge passed down from Denmother to Denmother going back for million of years. Unlike Humans and Faey who need to develope a written language before passing ancient knowledge along the Kimdori could do that without history turning into myth. Another thing to remember the Kimdori know everything the Karinnes knew but the Karinnes don't know everything the Kimdori know.

[Mad Monk]

I find it incredibly funny that humans in general seem to think that the living conditions out there required by HUMANS are the same for all other possible intelligent life in the universe. For example, Earth and almost all life on it are carbon based life forms which breath O2 to survive. How do we know there couldn't be an intelligent life form out there with a rock-like body that didn't even have to breath? How about a species that breaths nothing but hydrogen but O2 and nitrogen are poisonous to them? One capable of living in gamma radiation permanently? Key fact here, we DON'T! Trying to guess about intelligent life forms on other planets is conpletely pointless, since we DON'T know jack about the universe as a whole.

It can be an interesting debate about what is "life." A common philosophical challenge is to find a definition that can fit a man, a plant and a bacteria, but will exclude fire. My view is that we know that carbon based life like ours can exist. It has arisen at least once on Earth, and if similar circumstances exist on other worlds, the odds are that it will arise on them. We know that some forms of life can exist in places quite unsuited for humans - the so called "extremophiles". I'm not discounting the possibility of life, even intelligent life, based on non-carbon forms, but I suspect that it will be too alien for us to interact meaningfully with it.

P.S. if anyone is reading this to Sgt. Detritus of the A-M City Watch - I'm sorry sir, I didn't mean you!

With regard to knowing what questions to ask, it is important to note that we, the readers, know more than the characters in some cases. Let's look back in our own history a few years... Back when Galileo was peering through his tiny telescope at Jupiter, he discovered that there were 4 moons orbiting that planet. Before that moment, there was no possibility that ANY human being would even think of asking if there was a possibility of life on a moon of Jupiter. Further, even after the discovery of moons of Jupiter, it was many many many years until we had instruments and technology that allowed us to observe the potential for liquid water on one of those moons under the ice layer.

To put it simply, prior to Galileo, humanity Did Not Know that it Did Not Know if there was life on Io. Today, We Do Know that We Do Not Know if such life exists.

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-M

I beg to differ.

Giordano Bruno (1548 – February 17, 1600) was executed for heresy. Part of his heresy was preaching about multiple inhabited worlds. This was nine years before Galileo made his first telescope, and ten years before he saw the satelites of Jupiter. Bruno had been talking about life around other stars, rather than on Io it is true, but he believed that each star was a sun, and had its own worlds around it, which in turn could be inhabited.

[ANTIcarrot]

Some have postulated that the Kimdori may know something. How Old are the Kimdori?

Wrong question. The correct question is: How old are they in their current form? Fine they had stardrives while we had pointy sticks. But were they shape changers at that time? How long have they possessed their currently level of sophistication in that area? I find it difficult to credit that it's entirely natural. Fine I'll accept physical mimics; just for the hell of it. But physical mimics that are completely undetectable to (almost) all forms of science? Something makes me think they might have tinkered with themselves. Or others might have tinkered with them. Also you might want to consider the definition of 'kimdori'. When our future descendants start tinkering with ourselves, a thousand years hence they might still call themselves human. But if we could see them in that form, we might not.

We know that the Kimdori have influenced the development and interaction of various species, in particular the Faey, but do THEY even know that the Humans and Faey are directly related?

At their level of technology they couldn't help but know. Hell, at *our* level of technology we couldn't help but know that! And be able to tell with an accuracy of +/- 100 years exactly when the Faey left earth.

Remember that a Fox and Vulpar could successfully mate, so can many other species on both worlds.

Objection. Hearsay. Source material is purely speculative. "A fox and vulpar could cross breed..." Expected results don't count. Actual results do. We also have a rather detailed description of Vulpar behavior from a later work. It's nothing like how wild or domesticated foxes act. That kind of catlike self-possessed arrogance is quite alien to fox/canine behavior. Plus the whole One Tail Bad, Two Tails Good thing. (Or should that be the other way round?) It is slightly more important that just eye or hair colour.

In contrast to, for example, vulpar and shadow-fox cross-breeding... Now I'd buy that for a dollar.

[miraborn]

I beg to differ.

Giordano Bruno (1548 – February 17, 1600) was executed for heresy. Part of his heresy was preaching about multiple inhabited worlds. This was nine years before Galileo made his first telescope, and ten years before he saw the satelites of Jupiter. Bruno had been talking about life around other stars, rather than on Io it is true, but he believed that each star was a sun, and had its own worlds around it, which in turn could be inhabited.

My comment was specifically pointing out that since prior to Galileo seeing the satellites of Jupiter, no one knew they were there, thus could not speculate about the possibility of life thereupon. I was not suggesting that others had not speculated about life Anywhere else in the universe, just on the moons of Jupiter.

-M

[Mad Monk]

I beg to differ.

Giordano Bruno (1548 – February 17, 1600) was executed for heresy. Part of his heresy was preaching about multiple inhabited worlds. This was nine years before Galileo made his first telescope, and ten years before he saw the satelites of Jupiter. Bruno had been talking about life around other stars, rather than on Io it is true, but he believed that each star was a sun, and had its own worlds around it, which in turn could be inhabited.

My comment was specifically pointing out that since prior to Galileo seeing the satellites of Jupiter, no one knew they were there, thus could not speculate about the possibility of life thereupon. I was not suggesting that others had not speculated about life Anywhere else in the universe, just on the moons of Jupiter.

-M

There are claims by the Chinese that the astronomer Gan De spotted the satelites of Jupiter around 364 BC. The Chinese certainly had a belief in various celestial beings of great power (advanced alien civilisations? ) They had to live somewhere

I get your point, though. We are building speculations on speculations. Our models are based on a series of variables which have unknown values. As science develops, we can quantify some of the unknowns, but there can be unknown unknowns which we don't even know about. So the next model might evolve with some of those.

The key is, if you asume you know what is going on, you are probably wrong.

[miraborn]

I get your point, though. We are building speculations on speculations. Our models are based on a series of variables which have unknown values. As science develops, we can quantify some of the unknowns, but there can be unknown unknowns which we don't even know about. So the next model might evolve with some of those.

The key is, if you asume you know what is going on, you are probably wrong.

Exactly my point. We the reader probably know more about some things than the characters do, and vice-versa. We don't know all of what Cibi has shared with Jason, nor do we know what goes on in the minds of the Kimdori.

It will be interesting to read the next book when Fel deigns to write it.

-M

[Mad Monk]

Exactly my point. We the reader probably know more about some things than the characters do, and vice-versa. We don't know all of what Cibi has shared with Jason, nor do we know what goes on in the minds of the Kimdori.

It will be interesting to read the next book when Fel deigns to write it.-M

Yes, the Kimdori - Viral based metamorphs. I suspect someone in the past has been busy with Genetic Engineering. I may be biased, due to the origin of Sgt. Schlock, the Amorph from Schlock Mercenary. http://www.schlockmercenary.com/

Fel has promised us a next book, and it will come in time. I think that he is planning to work on the Arcan book first, but things may change, depanding on the ideas he has.

[Mad Monk]

I get your point, though. We are building speculations on speculations. Our models are based on a series of variables which have unknown values. As science develops, we can quantify some of the unknowns, but there can be unknown unknowns which we don't even know about. So the next model might evolve with some of those.

The key is, if you asume you know what is going on, you are probably wrong.

Well it looks like NASA is going to start quantifying some of the unknowns.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7918497.stm

[Seastallion]

You're essentially correct in that the genetic compatibility of humans and Faey would be statistically impossible if they developed on different planets. The Faey mark it off as Gora's Law, but the reality is quite different.

The Faey aren't native to Draconis. Gora's Law explains their genetic "nearness" to Draconian life, but the truth is, both the humans and the Faey descended from a common ancestor. They're splinter branches of the same race.

I've just finished reading the Firestaff Series and Pyrosian Chronicles, and I like them VERY much. Still, I've gotta say I love your Subjugation series the best of your works I've read. Having leaked to us some background information to us on the topic, I am wondering if you intend to bring it into the continued storyline at some point? Personally I love sci-fi stories that flesh out myths and legend (which is one of the reasons I'm a huge Stargate fan), and it would be interesting if this little tidbit you've dropped in our laps will lead to anything similiar in your future stories. I found the idea of the Fey/Faeries/Elves mythology being a cover for an alien visitation to be quite an intriguing aspect to this series. I wouldn't be the least bit disappointed if there were yet another mythologyical mystery to uncover for Jason Fox and company. Perhaps concerning this shared Fey/Human heritage??? You have my attention.

[sivak]

shared Fey/Human heritage

Atlantis?