Re: Spirit Walker - Spoilers
Posted: Sat May 03, 2008 11:27 am
Just a few thoughts concerning Chapter 12 & the change in the relationship between Kyven and Danna:
Was anyone else surprised by Kyven's sudden antagonism towards Danna and "the death of his dream"? I can understand the antipathy from Danna's POV, but not from Kyven's. My current theory is that the Shadowfox is trying to teach Kyven another lesson in wisdom, because to my mind his current bitterness shows a distinct lack of wisdom.
If Kyven thought about things for even a second Danna's actions would make sense to him. To paraphrase a common saying 'If you truly want to understand a person you must walk a mile in their shoes'. The Shadowfox put Kyven in an Arcan's fur for that very reason. Strangely though Kyven seems to be missing the point when it comes to Danna. Let’s put in a moment of thought ourselves and walk a mile in Danna's shoes (ANTIcarrot has alluded to this in a different context, but it's worth going over again):
Danna's background
1) Danna's job is equivalent to that of top-notch police Detective/Investigator, a job she is well suited to because of her eidetic memory.
2) Danna is the duly appointed representative of a Superpower - the Loremasters. Actions that she takes in her official capacity as a Loreguard Captain have the full backing of that Power (and whatever else you may think of them, the Loremasters are by proxy the Legitimate Government of a Confederation of Kingdoms, duly supported by the legitimate rulers of those Kingdoms). She therefore considers that any attack on the Loreguard is an attack by proxy on an official apparatus of the State, in effect an attempt to overthrow the system of order and law that she owes her allegiance to. This is clearly seen by her reaction concerning the murder of the four Loreguard rapists in Noraam - to sum up 'they might have been corrupt, but it is not for citizens, however well meaning, to take the law into their own hands'.
3) Danna was chasing Kyven for two reasons, firstly to find out what happened to him (magic strong enough to change a human into an Arcan would be a serious threat to civil order/the government. Her second reason was to get to know Kyven as a person.
4) Danna was an Officer in charge of a detachment of troops, and felt her responsibility to them keenly, as demonstrated by her sense of determination after one of them was killed by a monster while chasing Kyven.
5) Danna was brought up in a society which teaches its members from birth that Shamans are evil beings to be feared and detested
6) Danna believed Kyven's statements because of her alchemical Truth-checking device, in particular this includes his declaration that he is not a Shaman
Then in chapter 12
1) Danna's troops are ambushed without warning
2) All of the men under her command are killed
3) She discovers that 'Kyven' actually IS a Shaman
Given her background, Danna must have the following possibilities in mind
1) 'Kyven' used his Shaman abilities to render her Truth seeking device ineffective - after all he IS a Shaman. Remember, Danna doesn't know the true extent of (or lack in) his powers.
2) Her initial speculation that the human Kyven was murdered by a Shaman who took his form must be back on the table. Don't forget, she SAW 'Kyven' as a human with his eyes glowing. Initially she thought it was a unique alchemical device, but now she knows that he is a Shaman it puts a completely different spin on events.
3) Kyven lured her into the wilds and cold bloodedly murdered her men. This is not a simple case of 'capture the loreguard' - people under her command have been killed without cause and without a declaration of war. In other words, Kyven is a 'human' murderer (in Arcan form) at the least and a terrorist Shaman at worst. It doesn't matter whether the act was necessary, Kyven murdered people that she knew and worked with for weeks if not years. How would you feel if you were a police officer and a person that you wanted to help turned around and murdered three policemen on your team? People that you had worked with closely for weeks on end? People that you had bonded with, who had fought at your side against Monsters? People who had shared your sorrow when one of your team members was lost to said Monster?
Thus Danna's position is justified.
Kyven's position, on the other hand, doesn't make nearly as much sense.
Kyven seems to have been influenced by the fact that Claw sacrificed himself on his behalf. This could certainly engender in Kyven a sense of survivor's guilt, and a sense that he should seek vengeance on Claw's behalf. But I do not think that either of these factors would give Kyven sufficient cause to react in the way he did.
1) Firstly, Claw should not even have been there - he had ignored his instructions to help the others get through to Haven. He had thereby endangered all of the others by returning, which I consider to be a reprehensible act and certainly lacking in character.
2) Secondly, Claw died as he wished it, carrying the battle to the humans. Thus his death could not be said to be a tragedy.
3) Thirdly, Claw was an outsider in the group, even if he was starting to heal. You could not say that Kyven liked him, or even felt kinship to him. Kyven is a human-turned-arcan, not an arcan born. Even though Kyven is coming to understand Arcans, he is not truly one of them. In comparison, if Clover had been the one killed then Kyven's reactions would certainly make sense as she has already become a close friend and confidant to him.
There must therefore be another element at play, one that is more closely linked to Danna herself. Saying that Kyven felt outraged that Danna tried to kill him is perhaps overstating the matter, but he certainly seemed shocked by that fact. He seems to have fallen into the trap of ascribing his own motives onto Danna, and is now pissed at her for falling short of his expectations. Because Kyven never intended to harm HER, his state of mind seems to have been that she would never intentionally do harm to HIM. This shows a clear lack of wisdom, and is something that he would do well to guard against.
I think that this is the essence of another lesson that the Shadowfox is trying to teach him.
To further support this contention, I would like to bring up another point that most people have glanced at then passed over. WHY was it necessary to kill all of Danna's troops at that time and in that manner? The concept that they had to be killed because they could not be controlled in any other way does not bear up to closer scrutiny. Alternatives abound:
1) The Loreguard troops could have been bonked on the head by an invisible shadowwolf while they slept, and deprived of their goods and horses so that they could not follow.
2) The horses could have been picked off one at a time from a distance until only one was left, so that Danna and the Hunter would have had to continue on alone.
3) At any time Danna could have been kidnapped by an invisible shadowwolf and separated from her men. Since she had the compass, they would have had no way to follow. The Hunter seems to have his own methods of tracking Kyven down, and could have followed himself.
4) At the very least they could have all been captured and taken to Haven together. Kyven could clearly hunt enough meat to feed them all, and with Shaman magic any attempts to escape would be doomed. They would also have been much more tractable if none of them had been killed. People whose lives are under threat by murderous barbarian Arcans will act accordingly. People who are treated in a civil manner by Arcans who purport to be civilised will have the opposite reaction - and we already know that curiosity is a powerful driving force for Danna.
5) If you give it some more thought, even more scenarios will come to mind.
Clearly it was NOT necessary for the troops to be murdered, and the predictable response from Danna was to be even more antagonistic to Shamans in general and more sceptical about Kyven in particular. The obvious consequences will now begin to be played out.
It was the Spirits that mandated that Danna's troops be murdered. Why then would such a scenario be countenanced by the Spirits? This has the smell of a Shadowfox plan all over it. Cleary the Spirits have a plan for Danna, and want her alive. Clearly Danna's actions are both justified and predictable. Clearly Kyven has a valuable lesson to learn about the wisdom of making unwarranted assumptions.
From this point of view, killing Danna's troops in that manner was quite brilliant - an exercise in guile and deceit worthy of the Shadowfox
It was an unnecessary action that Kyven bought into because he has recently been so glutted on blood that he didn't stop to think about the consequence of the murders and Danna's likely reaction.
Well, that's my thoughts on the matter. Once tempers cool it will be interesting to see how things work out, but I foresee that there is as much learning to be done on Kyven's part as there is on Danna's.![Mr. Green :mrgreen:](./images/smilies/icon_mrgreen.gif)
Was anyone else surprised by Kyven's sudden antagonism towards Danna and "the death of his dream"? I can understand the antipathy from Danna's POV, but not from Kyven's. My current theory is that the Shadowfox is trying to teach Kyven another lesson in wisdom, because to my mind his current bitterness shows a distinct lack of wisdom.
If Kyven thought about things for even a second Danna's actions would make sense to him. To paraphrase a common saying 'If you truly want to understand a person you must walk a mile in their shoes'. The Shadowfox put Kyven in an Arcan's fur for that very reason. Strangely though Kyven seems to be missing the point when it comes to Danna. Let’s put in a moment of thought ourselves and walk a mile in Danna's shoes (ANTIcarrot has alluded to this in a different context, but it's worth going over again):
Danna's background
1) Danna's job is equivalent to that of top-notch police Detective/Investigator, a job she is well suited to because of her eidetic memory.
2) Danna is the duly appointed representative of a Superpower - the Loremasters. Actions that she takes in her official capacity as a Loreguard Captain have the full backing of that Power (and whatever else you may think of them, the Loremasters are by proxy the Legitimate Government of a Confederation of Kingdoms, duly supported by the legitimate rulers of those Kingdoms). She therefore considers that any attack on the Loreguard is an attack by proxy on an official apparatus of the State, in effect an attempt to overthrow the system of order and law that she owes her allegiance to. This is clearly seen by her reaction concerning the murder of the four Loreguard rapists in Noraam - to sum up 'they might have been corrupt, but it is not for citizens, however well meaning, to take the law into their own hands'.
3) Danna was chasing Kyven for two reasons, firstly to find out what happened to him (magic strong enough to change a human into an Arcan would be a serious threat to civil order/the government. Her second reason was to get to know Kyven as a person.
4) Danna was an Officer in charge of a detachment of troops, and felt her responsibility to them keenly, as demonstrated by her sense of determination after one of them was killed by a monster while chasing Kyven.
5) Danna was brought up in a society which teaches its members from birth that Shamans are evil beings to be feared and detested
6) Danna believed Kyven's statements because of her alchemical Truth-checking device, in particular this includes his declaration that he is not a Shaman
Then in chapter 12
1) Danna's troops are ambushed without warning
2) All of the men under her command are killed
3) She discovers that 'Kyven' actually IS a Shaman
Given her background, Danna must have the following possibilities in mind
1) 'Kyven' used his Shaman abilities to render her Truth seeking device ineffective - after all he IS a Shaman. Remember, Danna doesn't know the true extent of (or lack in) his powers.
2) Her initial speculation that the human Kyven was murdered by a Shaman who took his form must be back on the table. Don't forget, she SAW 'Kyven' as a human with his eyes glowing. Initially she thought it was a unique alchemical device, but now she knows that he is a Shaman it puts a completely different spin on events.
3) Kyven lured her into the wilds and cold bloodedly murdered her men. This is not a simple case of 'capture the loreguard' - people under her command have been killed without cause and without a declaration of war. In other words, Kyven is a 'human' murderer (in Arcan form) at the least and a terrorist Shaman at worst. It doesn't matter whether the act was necessary, Kyven murdered people that she knew and worked with for weeks if not years. How would you feel if you were a police officer and a person that you wanted to help turned around and murdered three policemen on your team? People that you had worked with closely for weeks on end? People that you had bonded with, who had fought at your side against Monsters? People who had shared your sorrow when one of your team members was lost to said Monster?
Thus Danna's position is justified.
Kyven's position, on the other hand, doesn't make nearly as much sense.
Kyven seems to have been influenced by the fact that Claw sacrificed himself on his behalf. This could certainly engender in Kyven a sense of survivor's guilt, and a sense that he should seek vengeance on Claw's behalf. But I do not think that either of these factors would give Kyven sufficient cause to react in the way he did.
1) Firstly, Claw should not even have been there - he had ignored his instructions to help the others get through to Haven. He had thereby endangered all of the others by returning, which I consider to be a reprehensible act and certainly lacking in character.
2) Secondly, Claw died as he wished it, carrying the battle to the humans. Thus his death could not be said to be a tragedy.
3) Thirdly, Claw was an outsider in the group, even if he was starting to heal. You could not say that Kyven liked him, or even felt kinship to him. Kyven is a human-turned-arcan, not an arcan born. Even though Kyven is coming to understand Arcans, he is not truly one of them. In comparison, if Clover had been the one killed then Kyven's reactions would certainly make sense as she has already become a close friend and confidant to him.
There must therefore be another element at play, one that is more closely linked to Danna herself. Saying that Kyven felt outraged that Danna tried to kill him is perhaps overstating the matter, but he certainly seemed shocked by that fact. He seems to have fallen into the trap of ascribing his own motives onto Danna, and is now pissed at her for falling short of his expectations. Because Kyven never intended to harm HER, his state of mind seems to have been that she would never intentionally do harm to HIM. This shows a clear lack of wisdom, and is something that he would do well to guard against.
I think that this is the essence of another lesson that the Shadowfox is trying to teach him.
To further support this contention, I would like to bring up another point that most people have glanced at then passed over. WHY was it necessary to kill all of Danna's troops at that time and in that manner? The concept that they had to be killed because they could not be controlled in any other way does not bear up to closer scrutiny. Alternatives abound:
1) The Loreguard troops could have been bonked on the head by an invisible shadowwolf while they slept, and deprived of their goods and horses so that they could not follow.
2) The horses could have been picked off one at a time from a distance until only one was left, so that Danna and the Hunter would have had to continue on alone.
3) At any time Danna could have been kidnapped by an invisible shadowwolf and separated from her men. Since she had the compass, they would have had no way to follow. The Hunter seems to have his own methods of tracking Kyven down, and could have followed himself.
4) At the very least they could have all been captured and taken to Haven together. Kyven could clearly hunt enough meat to feed them all, and with Shaman magic any attempts to escape would be doomed. They would also have been much more tractable if none of them had been killed. People whose lives are under threat by murderous barbarian Arcans will act accordingly. People who are treated in a civil manner by Arcans who purport to be civilised will have the opposite reaction - and we already know that curiosity is a powerful driving force for Danna.
5) If you give it some more thought, even more scenarios will come to mind.
Clearly it was NOT necessary for the troops to be murdered, and the predictable response from Danna was to be even more antagonistic to Shamans in general and more sceptical about Kyven in particular. The obvious consequences will now begin to be played out.
It was the Spirits that mandated that Danna's troops be murdered. Why then would such a scenario be countenanced by the Spirits? This has the smell of a Shadowfox plan all over it. Cleary the Spirits have a plan for Danna, and want her alive. Clearly Danna's actions are both justified and predictable. Clearly Kyven has a valuable lesson to learn about the wisdom of making unwarranted assumptions.
From this point of view, killing Danna's troops in that manner was quite brilliant - an exercise in guile and deceit worthy of the Shadowfox
![Twisted Evil :twisted:](./images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif)
Well, that's my thoughts on the matter. Once tempers cool it will be interesting to see how things work out, but I foresee that there is as much learning to be done on Kyven's part as there is on Danna's.
![Mr. Green :mrgreen:](./images/smilies/icon_mrgreen.gif)