Spirit Walker - Spoilers - Chapters 1 through part of 14

[Phantom]

Disagree. Her biggest problem right now is her belief that Kyven the Arcan Shaman KILLED the 'real' Kyven. It's not just her general knowledge in this case, she hates this particular shaman for a personal reason. It's probably going to be a tad tricky proving to her this hasn't happened. Any proof of transformation magic will just reinforce those views for example.

While i'll agree thats going to be a problem..... Yes I can see it too but there are some outs in it.
I still say that whats comming is going to shake her very beleifs to the bone.
thats going to be her biggest problem. The Problem of Kyven Arcan or Human is small compaired to the
whole everything you know or thought you knew is False.

There's a 99% chance that's not all she's been told... Since Kyven seems to have become quite enamored of harsh military reality during this story, let's remember another harsh military reality he hasn't really had to face up until now: When you spot a man or woman with 20lb of explosive strapped to their body, you do NOT stop and ask them, "Excuse me, but are you a good suicide bomber or a bad one? Is your cause noble or just? Would you possibly consider an alternative line of employment?" You shoot the bastard. Instantly and without warning, until they are dead.

Some enemy units are too dangerous to mess around with. Tanks. Suicide bombers. Battleships. MIRVs. Shamans. Whatever the philosophical or political reason the Loremasters dislike Shamans, this is the *practical* reason why they are shot on sight.

There are also a couple of other reasons why the Loremasters might not like or trust the spirit, or those that follow them.

While in a way that's True enough. Shamans didn't just start walking into groups of humans and Exploding them self's
Nor does it seem like they just started Killing humans for no reason (for Self Defense..yea I can see that)
See here's the problem I have with the Above........true you don't go asking if the person who has 20 pounds of
Explosives Strapped to them is a Mad bomber. But Where does an 800 Pound Gorilla Sit? ...Anywhere he wants to
Oh and By the way this 800 Pound Gorilla is dangerous as an Atomic bomb and your hunting him

I hope he won't. Well, apart from extra spells. Fels characters have a poor habit of pulling deus et machina out of their backsides every two seconds. I find it tricky to like any character that can suddenly and conveniently find a brand new I Win button any time they come across a bad situation. It's often much more fun when they have to think their way out of a situation. And that's why the 'Wikuni Constitution' remains my favorite part of the Firestaff story.

Opps too late he all ready did it

I would not permit that. You are mine, Shaman, as are your progeny. I did not introduce the powers of my foxes into the Arcans to watch them slaughtered for their fur.
“Powers? But I can only do one thing.”
You have not even scratched the surface of your powers as a shadow fox, she answered bluntly. There is much more to it than blending with the shadow. You are the shadow, Shaman, capable of far more than my foxes because you are more intelligent and can comprehend the abstract nature of your abilities that they cannot. In time, you will come to understand just what you can do.
“You won’t teach me?”
No. The power of shadow is my gift to you. I will not teach you, you must learn on your own, as any shadow fox kit must learn without any help from its mother. You will find, in time, that the gift I have given you can rival your Shaman magic in some ways.
“I’m really starting to think you had all of this planned out since before I knew I was a Shaman.”
There is wisdom in being prepared, she answered, rather cheekily, then she pulled away from him. She gave him a single look, then padded into the shadows. Those shadows seemed to melt her body away, and then she was gone.

I still Say in keeping with the Stealth, Guile and deceit the bigest one would be the ability to Shapeshift.

Thinking about similar creatures in other settings, his biggest gift might be to step into one shadow and out of another shadow - many miles away form the first one.

And in other news... Anyone care to place a wager or two:
*Arcans are origonally from Arkansas.
*If Danna and Toby can feel the Arcan's pain, they'll also be quite shocked and alarmed when the Arcans 'comfort' each other.

Pretty Easy guess as Fel gave that away in Chapter 11 (see Above)

I think Arcans were somehow created by humans but after the War destroyed the world the Sprits became
very upset and so they introduced Shamans to balance things so humans wouldn't or couldn't do it once again.

But as the Volons said Truth is a Three edged Sword

Phantom
"The avalanche has already started.
It is too late for the pebbles to vote."

[kabalman2000]

Okay, y'all have triggered some ideas. Danna will continue to think that Kyven-the-human and Kyven-the-shaman are two different people (at least until well after she is back in human lands). This may be helped by Kyven being able to a) change back and forth at will and b) having the shadow jump ability. He will use this to establish his human presence at his shop at the same time as he is involved with Danna at Haven.

When Danna escapes and gets back, this will provide Kyven-the-human with a perfect cover. Even if she becomes an arcan sympathizer (80/20) or joins the masked (50/50) or gets romantically involved with Kyven-the-human (99/1), his shamanity (?) will be hidden from her for a long time (guile and deception).

Oh ... arcans aren't from Arkansas, they're clearly Canadian, eh. After all, haven is in Saskatchewan (well, it could be Manitoba or Alberta, too). Actually, I think we'll find that whatever great force was released in the last war, the force that breached the veil between our world and the spirit world, created manna crystals, and allowed or encouraged the spirits to interact more with this world also created the arcans, probably by converting humans to arcan form as Kyven was, but not voluntarily. (Darn ... Phantom beat me to it.)

Just some ideas from the madman.

[Elsh]

Okay, y'all have triggered some ideas. Danna will continue to think that Kyven-the-human and Kyven-the-shaman are two different people (at least until well after she is back in human lands). This may be helped by Kyven being able to a) change back and forth at will and b) having the shadow jump ability. He will use this to establish his human presence at his shop at the same time as he is involved with Danna at Haven.

When Danna escapes and gets back, this will provide Kyven-the-human with a perfect cover. Even if she becomes an arcan sympathizer (80/20) or joins the masked (50/50) or gets romantically involved with Kyven-the-human (99/1), his shamanity (?) will be hidden from her for a long time (guile and deception).

Oh ... arcans aren't from Arkansas, they're clearly Canadian, eh. After all, haven is in Saskatchewan (well, it could be Manitoba or Alberta, too). Actually, I think we'll find that whatever great force was released in the last war, the force that breached the veil between our world and the spirit world, created manna crystals, and allowed or encouraged the spirits to interact more with this world also created the arcans, probably by converting humans to arcan form as Kyven was, but not voluntarily. (Darn ... Phantom beat me to it.)

Just some ideas from the madman.

A human shaman married to a high ranking loremaster would be the greatest manifestation of guile and deceit. Nobody would ever consider that a human could be a shaman or that a reknown crystal cutter and husband of a respected and devoted loremaster could be a part of the masked.

[dellstart]

Okay, y'all have triggered some ideas. Danna will continue to think that Kyven-the-human and Kyven-the-shaman are two different people (at least until well after she is back in human lands). This may be helped by Kyven being able to a) change back and forth at will and b) having the shadow jump ability. He will use this to establish his human presence at his shop at the same time as he is involved with Danna at Haven.

When Danna escapes and gets back, this will provide Kyven-the-human with a perfect cover. Even if she becomes an arcan sympathizer (80/20) or joins the masked (50/50) or gets romantically involved with Kyven-the-human (99/1), his shamanity (?) will be hidden from her for a long time (guile and deception).

Oh ... arcans aren't from Arkansas, they're clearly Canadian, eh. After all, haven is in Saskatchewan (well, it could be Manitoba or Alberta, too). Actually, I think we'll find that whatever great force was released in the last war, the force that breached the veil between our world and the spirit world, created manna crystals, and allowed or encouraged the spirits to interact more with this world also created the arcans, probably by converting humans to arcan form as Kyven was, but not voluntarily. (Darn ... Phantom beat me to it.)

Just some ideas from the madman.

A human shaman married to a high ranking loremaster would be the greatest manifestation of guile and deceit. Nobody would ever consider that a human could be a shaman or that a reknown crystal cutter and husband of a respected and devoted loremaster could be a part of the masked.

Good point.

[ANTIcarrot]

thats going to be her biggest problem. The Problem of Kyven Arcan or Human is small compaired to the
whole everything you know or thought you knew is False.

Ah, but what does she know? Consider the First Family from the Amtrak series of books. The Loremasters might know more about the arcans than they tell people like Kyven. She might be quite willing to believe that spirits are real and the arcans can run a city and yet at the same time see them as a threat - just like she can understand her order is rotten and yet believe it is still mostly in the right.

Humans are very practiced at the "nice idea but wouldn't work" and "oh, but that's completely different" and "yeah it's true, but I don't care" attitudes. The fur trade in her world is cruel. The meat trade in our world is also cruel. How many here want to stop eating meat, even though they might agree the meat trade is nasty from the chicken's PoV? None of you? Yes. Exactly. That is also the way she thinks.

While in a way that's True enough. Shamans didn't just start walking into groups of humans and Exploding them self's

In this case deliberately pretending to be human to lure her, deliberately slowing down so she could catch up, deliberately walk into a crowd and then start to kill everyone except her without warning. Sure they're basically nazis, and they deserve it, but they are also men with families, and they still have no choice as to how to react to a shaman because of the relative power levels.

Nor does it seem like they just started Killing humans for no reason (for Self Defense..yea I can see that)

They kill several soldiers here because capturing and looking after them would be inconvenient. Again, it's harsh military reality, but again, that means the shamans probably have done it before.

But Where does an 800 Pound Gorilla Sit? ...Anywhere he wants to

Until the SWAT team shows up and pawns his ass. At what point society should protect such individuals, or regulate them to protect the majority, is a matter of perpetual debate. Given that the two sides here are effectively at war, the who's hunting who thing becomes mute.

Opps too late he all ready did it

Once or twice I don't object to; especially when the new found abilities are booby trapped as they are here. But deus et machina became a stock phrase because people agree it should be used rarely.

But as the Volons said Truth is a Three edged Sword

The third edge is always the fun bit. Kyven's already brushed up against the edge as you pointed out in C11. I wonder how deeply Fel's going to use it cut him?

[furry_wolf2001b]

/Agrees with ANTIcarrot.

I doubt things will be really easy and neat, just like in real life the world and people are complex, so are peoples feelings thoughts and actions.

I am really surprised one thing have not been mentioned, (as far as i know, i might have misst it)
But maybe it is too obvious, and wont work out that way because of it. :-/

I mean who says Kyven will continue to be the only shadow fox around?

[Elsh]

The meat trade in our world is also cruel. How many here want to stop eating meat, even though they might agree the meat trade is nasty from the chicken's PoV? None of you? Yes. Exactly. That is also the way she thinks.

Since when do Chickens have PoVs? Find me a Chicken or a Cow that is intelligent, has emotions and a consciousness and I'll give up hot wings. Preferably one that can express itself through speech.

I don't think there's any merit to comparing Human-Arcan relationships to Human-Chicken relationships. While they might be treated the same, one is a fictional fantasy and the other goes great with a grill,salt,peper,hickory wood and heat.

Arcans and Humans are engaged in a war of equals, perpetuated by a mistaken ideology of difference and fear. I think the key to this entire issue is going to be to defame the loreguards and for the arcans to gain status amongst the humans as sentient creatures. An experience akin to the civil rights movement in the United States.

[furry_wolf2001b]

The meat trade in our world is also cruel. How many here want to stop eating meat, even though they might agree the meat trade is nasty from the chicken's PoV? None of you? Yes. Exactly. That is also the way she thinks.

Since when do Chickens have PoVs? Find me a Chicken or a Cow that is intelligent, has emotions and a consciousness and I'll give up hot wings. Preferably one that can express itself through speech.

I don't think there's any merit to comparing Human-Arcan relationships to Human-Chicken relationships. While they might be treated the same, one is a fictional fantasy and the other goes great with a grill,salt,peper,hickory wood and heat.

Arcans and Humans are engaged in a war of equals, perpetuated by a mistaken ideology of difference and fear. I think the key to this entire issue is going to be to defame the loreguards and for the arcans to gain status amongst the humans as sentient creatures. An experience akin to the civil rights movement in the United States.

1. ALLOT of humans think Arcans are stupid, little more then animals.
2. The masked is the "civil movement" they are hunted for their beliefs, i think.
3. slavery is damd profitable, and you are thinking they will drop slavery because it is not moral?
I don't think that will happen, until they get machines and people with skills that are more profitable.
Or a population who rises up and demands the jobs the arcans are doing.
4. The lore people will not take anything laying down, they can and have painted a black picture when needed before and will again.
Plus the lores are a superpower, with all that entails.
5. Most humans don't eat arcans, just as most humans wont eat monkeys, it still wont hinder us in using monkeys for med research, even if they can do sign language.

[Elsh]

1. ALLOT of humans think Arcans are stupid, little more then animals.

Alot of Arcans are stupid and little more than animals.

2. The masked is the "civil movement" they are hunted for their beliefs, i think.

I agree that the masked are a civil movement

3. slavery is damd profitable, and you are thinking they will drop slavery because it is not moral? I don't think that will happen, until they get machines and people with skills that are more profitable. Or a population who rises up and demands the jobs the arcans are doing.

Slavery in the southern united states was profitable also. The US Civil war wasn't brought about by a huge technological advance, or high levels of unemployment in the south. It was politics and ideology.

4. The lore people will not take anything laying down, they can and have painted a black picture when needed before and will again.
Plus the lores are a superpower, with all that entails.

I agree that war is likely to play a role in anything that Fel writes, but the loremaster are a well armed, respected but not necessarily liked MINORITY. I don't remember reading anything to imply that people follow them willingly or out of love, they are just another structure in society. The loremasters don't even rule, they exist parallel to the ruling structure. I think they are a powerful enemy but I don't think they are a HUGE deal, or as big an issue as winning over the hearts and minds of the people.

5. Most humans don't eat arcans, just as most humans wont eat monkeys, it still wont hinder us in using monkeys for med research, even if they can do sign language.

I've never seen or read anything that implied that monkeys or any other animal was capable of producing language. I know that some animals, parrots for example, can imitate language. I'm not comfortable equating the two things.

Back on topic though, keep the thread alive it gives me something to do while waiting for the next chapter. Mods please excuse my foray into the real world.

[furry_wolf2001b]

Sorry to say i feel you haven't disproved a single point i was trying to make.

[Elsh]

Sorry to say i feel you haven't disproved a single point i was trying to make.

I don't disagree with everything you said, I also don't agree that everything you've mentioned is important to the story or its development. For example, I don't think that the value of Arcans as slaves will play much of a role if any in whether or not Arcans are freed eventually, something you implied matters.

[boballab]

Going back over the entire story I think I pieced a few things together.

I believe that Kyven is going to somehow be allowed to shift between Arcan and Human.

My reasoning is this: Kyven as a human just about reached his physical peak, without looking like he was eating steroids while training with Stalker. Most of the Shadowfox's spells are spells that must be maintained and require alot out of him and he could only hold the silence spell for a short time as a human. As an Arcan he is much more physically fit then as a human and still as an Arcan is still not strong enough and must build up his endurance as per the Shadowfox's direction. Another reason is that he hasn't learned all his Shadowfox powers, and the Shadowfox spirit said they rival the shaman powers. Hell he hasn't even started exploring them yet.

Another thing that I think supports this is that the Shaman that he turned Whisper over to, said that the Shaman are debating Kyven the Human Shaman and that if they are debating that they need a lesson from the spirts. Clover in chapter 11 said that if Kyven was changed back Human in front of them after they accepted him as Arcan would teach them about judging people. All the Shaman have been recalled, I believe this is to teach all the Shaman the lesson about judging people by having the Shadowfox turn Kyven back to human in front of them.

So I conclude the sprits need to turn him back to human to teach the rest of the Shaman a lesson, but why go to all the trouble of having him learn the Shadowfox powers if he never has to use them? With those two things the only answer I come up with is that he will be able to switch forms later on.


Something else that people are over looking:

Yes Danna is a Loreguard officer, but she is only a Captain. Captains are rather low ranking officers in the grand scheme of things and are not usually clued in to the big picture. The Shamans really wouldn't learn much from her intelligence wise, especially since she belongs to what is basically the CIC, NCIS or OSI of the Loreguard. They would need to get their hands on a high ranking Loremaster or a General to get any really good intell.

I believe the spirits want her not for what she knows but for what she is: A professional investigator, a detective. She also has an Edetic memory. If she comes to get enough doubts in what the Loremasters preach, she will go digging for the truth. I believe the Heads of the Loremasters know the Truth about what the Arcans really are and where they come from. If she found out the truth and got it to the Humans it would carry some serious weight. The people have been conditioned to believe the Loremasters and if a Loreguard officer steps forward and tells the Humans the Loremasters know the truth and are lying and can prove it, it would shatter or at least weaken their hold on the masses. Remember Fel stressed in his description of her that she is a investigator.

[hoppy]

1. ALLOT of humans think Arcans are stupid, little more then animals.

Alot of Arcans are stupid and little more than animals.

2. The masked is the "civil movement" they are hunted for their beliefs, i think.

I agree that the masked are a civil movement

here I will say that the society and most of the loreguard does not even seem to know about the organization

3. slavery is damd profitable, and you are thinking they will drop slavery because it is not moral? I don't think that will happen, until they get machines and people with skills that are more profitable. Or a population who rises up and demands the jobs the arcans are doing.

Slavery in the southern united states was profitable also. The US Civil war wasn't brought about by a huge technological advance, or high levels of unemployment in the south. It was politics and ideology.

Also economics the north had less use for slaves because of industrialization and different farming conditions than the Civil War would have been allot longer in coming if people in the north could have made as much money off slaves as they did in the south

4. The lore people will not take anything laying down, they can and have painted a black picture when needed before and will again.
Plus the lores are a superpower, with all that entails.

I agree that war is likely to play a role in anything that Fel writes, but the loremaster are a well armed, respected but not necessarily liked MINORITY. I don't remember reading anything to imply that people follow them willingly or out of love, they are just another structure in society. The loremasters don't even rule, they exist parallel to the ruling structure. I think they are a powerful enemy but I don't think they are a HUGE deal, or as big an issue as winning over the hearts and minds of the people.

I think read something about them stopping regional warfare. they also seem to have taken many of the functions of a government. They probably come close to being a confederation.

5. Most humans don't eat arcans, just as most humans wont eat monkeys, it still wont hinder us in using monkeys for med research, even if they can do sign language.

I've never seen or read anything that implied that monkeys or any other animal was capable of producing language. I know that some animals, parrots for example, can imitate language. I'm not comfortable equating the two things.

Back on topic though, keep the thread alive it gives me something to do while waiting for the next chapter. Mods please excuse my foray into the real world.

[boballab]

In support of one thing hoppy brought up:


That was the goal of the Loremasters. They were scientists at heart, historians, men and women of intelligence and vision, seeking to reclaim the technology and knowledge of the Great Ancient Civilization. They’d started in Avannar nearly six hundred years ago, starting as a society in a college in Avannar that dedicated itself to recovering the lost secrets of the Great Ancient Civilization. But over time, they’d also come to unify the
different kingdoms and city-states of Noraam under a loose coalition, a confederacy that the Loremasters oversaw, to better undertake and coordinate their research and experiments. Each of the Ten Kingdoms of Noraam were independent, but the Loremasters were there to keep the peace between them, acting as diplomats, and having men in every human settlement to allow swift communication across all of Noraam.
Some men hated the Loremasters, saw them as overlords, a shadowy organization that killed anyone who crossed them, but Kyven hadn’t really thought of them that way


The old city was built back in the violent times, before the Loremasters came to control Noraam, when each city was its own nation and they warred upon each other


these are just two instances that Fel wrote about how the Loremasters came about

[hoppy]

Going back over the entire story I think I pieced a few things together.

I believe that Kyven is going to somehow be allowed to shift between Arcan and Human.

My reasoning is this: Kyven as a human just about reached his physical peak, without looking like he was eating steroids while training with Stalker. Most of the Shadowfox's spells are spells that must be maintained and require alot out of him and he could only hold the silence spell for a short time as a human. As an Arcan he is much more physically fit then as a human and still as an Arcan is still not strong enough and must build up his endurance as per the Shadowfox's direction. Another reason is that he hasn't learned all his Shadowfox powers, and the Shadowfox spirit said they rival the shaman powers. Hell he hasn't even started exploring them yet.

Another thing that I think supports this is that the Shaman that he turned Whisper over to, said that the Shaman are debating Kyven the Human Shaman and that if they are debating that they need a lesson from the spirts. Clover in chapter 11 said that if Kyven was changed back Human in front of them after they accepted him as Arcan would teach them about judging people. All the Shaman have been recalled, I believe this is to teach all the Shaman the lesson about judging people by having the Shadowfox turn Kyven back to human in front of them.

don't know about this other spirits maybe neutral on this. I am also not sure how active spirits are with a shaman after their walk. It seems to me gathering them together is a over reaction. I would make the point by turning selected shaman human. There is more going on here.

So I conclude the sprits need to turn him back to human to teach the rest of the Shaman a lesson, but why go to all the trouble of having him learn the Shadowfox powers if he never has to use them? With those two things the only answer I come up with is that he will be able to switch forms later on.


Something else that people are over looking:

Yes Danna is a Loreguard officer, but she is only a Captain. Captains are rather low ranking officers in the grand scheme of things and are not usually clued in to the big picture. The Shamans really wouldn't learn much from her intelligence wise, especially since she belongs to what is basically the CIC, NCIS or OSI of the Loreguard. They would need to get their hands on a high ranking Loremaster or a General to get any really good intell.

She probably knows things indirectly they can use, if not there are rumors.

I believe the spirits want her not for what she knows but for what she is: A professional investigator, a detective. She also has an Edetic memory. If she comes to get enough doubts in what the Loremasters preach, she will go digging for the truth.

I say 50/50 on this WAG

I believe the Heads of the Loremasters know the Truth about what the Arcans really are and where they come from.

If she found out the truth and got it to the Humans it would carry some serious weight.

More likely the the loreguard/masters would say she was tortured by renegade arcans.

The people have been conditioned to believe the Loremasters and if a Loreguard officer steps forward and tells the Humans the Loremasters know the truth and are lying and can prove it, it would shatter or at least weaken their hold on the masses. Remember Fel stressed in his description of her that she is a investigator.