psionic stories?

[Forbidder]

Thermoplye:
Wow, that is a very indepth analysis.  I think that would make excellent feedback, hopefully Fel reads it.  But I also think we may have differences in what we think are real characters.  In fact I identify a lot with the main character in subjugation.  I live vicariously through him, and may be why I like the story so much.

And the character's life was far from perfect.  In the beginning he's hounded by some aliens he wanted to ignore.  Many times he's scared silly trying to hide his abilities from the aliens.  Then he finds that his moral obligation prevents him from accepting the alien he loves.  The government is after him, he has to be on constant vigilence.  And I don't think he can comfortably live out the rest of his life unless every single day he has is dedicated to seeking a way for the human race to have freedom.  He's had to work at getting to where he is, and he strives hard to push forward.  He just has a lot of inspiration, and some good fortune to help him out from time to time.  Maybe all of this isn't horrible like him lossing limbs, or being tortured by some crazed villain, or him living in poverty, but sometimes those stories tend to get on my nerve because I have a hard time reading about too much misfortune.

I've never given an eye to inner vs. outer conflict before, but conflict is definately necessary.  Perhaps inner conflict makes a good character, and outer conflict makes a good plot?  I don't know..

But I kinda do find the Jason character flawed, his incessant requirement for being free of alien control makes him pass up lost of good opportunities which causes worry in me.  He does seem kind of perfect, lots of mental strength, physical skill, and intelligence.  But that just makes me like the character more.  Plus I think you need someone like Jason to be able to accomplish what I think he is trying to accomplish.  You can't have too many flaws if you want to overthrow aliens.

But yeah I reread my statement from yesterday, and now it seemed sorta strong what I said, I never ment to offend you or put you on the spot.  I just like subjugation a lot and was trying to express that idea.  I think I even like it more than Firestaff, but it's hard to decide.

About the women role issue?  I just sorta accepted that we have no idea what alien culture would be like, and I wouldn't possibly understand it.  But if you are talking about what kind of message the story sends to the readers...  I tend to accept them as just ideas, and I don't incorporate the ones I disagree with.


And as I always like to say, "to each, his own."

Sorry for not being very organized, I had a jumbled thought process.

[Fel]

Yah, I read Therm's critique, and there is merit there.  He pointed out some omissions I've made in Subjugation, as well as some of my own feelings of shortcoming regarding the story.  I like the story, but even I agree that some serious editing and rewriting of a couple of chapters will be in order at some point.  :)

But, you've only seen the first act of Subjugation.  There's tremendous conflict on the horizon for Jason, both moral and physical, that will test his intelligence and his physical abilities, as well as seriously challenge his moral positions.

What you've seen of the Faey girls is basicly "manhunting."  Faey cultural quirks make them act like that in order to secure a husband, because females are the dominant gender, BUT the males still have the same behavioral attitudes as human males while adopting some more passive attributes.  Women don't play hard to get, that's what the men do, but they're not quite as "hard to get" as they want the women to believe.  Once they have one, their behavior and attitudes are much different.  I never really introduced Janna and Vell the way I should have (they were much more prominent in a prior plotline I scrapped), who demonstrate this very well.  Janna and Vell are married with children, and the way Janna acts is WAY WAY WAY different than the way Symone and Jyslin acted.  Symone herself will change her behavior once she has Tim safely entrenched the the iron chains of marriage (/ducks Mamadoom).  Think of it as settling into domestic bliss...it has a dramatic effect on the behavior of a Faey woman.

Jason's seeming perfection is actually a requirement for the story.  He is a towering figure, an icon if you will, and sometimes a story needs an icon to work, not a flawed, more "normal" seeming character.  I can't really explain any more without giving too much of the story away.

As far as psionic story characters with flaws go, I think Kit is probably my favorite.  He's a thief and a murderer, but in his own way he has his own kind of morality that causes him to draw the line.  He's "semi-evil," if you were, more than willing to be downright vicious in some circumstances, but in others he's much more nice, almost gentle.  He has no internal conflict about what he is, which makes him much different than Tarrin.  He is a thief and a murderer, and though he doesn't want to be anymore, he understands what he is and he accepts it as part of WHO he is.  He doesn't run from or hide from his past.  He accepts it, all but embraces it, and uses it as a teaching tool and a foundation on which to build the rest of his life.

Then, there's Tarrin, my favorite psychotic maniac...hehehe.  Tarrin was always my vision of a dark hero, someone who knew he was doing wrong, but just could not help himself.  Tarrin's internal conflict was the cornerstone of the Firestaff series, because even though you knew what he was doing was important, that was always the background of the true battle going on, which was inside his own head.  The dilemmas Tarrin faced changed as the story progressed, evolving from "human vs. cat" to "duty vs. desire" and finally to "life vs. death," but in the end he overcame it all.

I kinda felt sorry for Tarrin sometimes, hehehe.  I tortured him pretty mercilessly.  If he were standing behind me right now, I'm pretty sure there'd be a smear of blood on the monitor within the first second.

But I love the big guy anyway, no matter how much he'd love to hand me my own spleen.

[Shadowhawk]

As far as psionic story characters with flaws go, I think Kit is probably my favorite.  He's a thief and a murderer, but in his own way he has his own kind of morality that causes him to draw the line.  He's "semi-evil," if you were, more than willing to be downright vicious in some circumstances, but in others he's much more nice, almost gentle.  He has no internal conflict about what he is, which makes him much different than Tarrin.  He is a thief and a murderer, and though he doesn't want to be anymore, he understands what he is and he accepts it as part of WHO he is.  He doesn't run from or hide from his past.  He accepts it, all but embraces it, and uses it as a teaching tool and a foundation on which to build the rest of his life.

Kit kind of reminds me of some certain "good bad guy" Roger Zelazny's characters, like Jack of Shadows or Hell Tanner from "Damnation Alley".

Any ETA on next chapter of "Alpha Project"

[Lochar]

I kinda felt sorry for Tarrin sometimes, hehehe.  I tortured him pretty mercilessly.  If he were standing behind me right now, I'm pretty sure there'd be a smear of blood on the monitor within the first second.

But I love the big guy anyway, no matter how much he'd love to hand me my own spleen.

Depends.  Are 2,500 years away from the Firestaff, and have you not messed with his life recently?  Then he might be willing to forgive and forget. LOL

[Thermopyle]

But, you've only seen the first act of Subjugation.  There's tremendous conflict on the horizon for Jason, both moral and physical, that will test his intelligence and his physical abilities, as well as seriously challenge his moral positions.

Yeah, I figured there would be.  It's just that there isn't any right now.  Even the physical threats that do exist in the story are hardly worth mentioning at this point; the gangs are simply outclassed, and since we haven't really seen anything to make the alien threat physically real, that doesn't add tension to the story either.

What you've seen of the Faey girls is basicly "manhunting."  Faey cultural quirks make them act like that in order to secure a husband, because females are the dominant gender, BUT the males still have the same behavioral attitudes as human males while adopting some more passive attributes.  Women don't play hard to get, that's what the men do, but they're not quite as "hard to get" as they want the women to believe.  Once they have one, their behavior and attitudes are much different.  I never really introduced Janna and Vell the way I should have (they were much more prominent in a prior plotline I scrapped), who demonstrate this very well.  Janna and Vell are married with children, and the way Janna acts is WAY WAY WAY different than the way Symone and Jyslin acted.  Symone herself will change her behavior once she has Tim safely entrenched the the iron chains of marriage (/ducks Mamadoom).  Think of it as settling into domestic bliss...it has a dramatic effect on the behavior of a Faey woman.

I think the problem is establishing the societal difference without the story coming off as mental masturbation.  Having pretty much every alien woman so far think the main character is gorgeous doesn't work well; rather than allowing the reader (me) to feel seperated from reality and submerged into a pleasant fantasy of being abnormally attractive to sexy women, the story goes so far overboard that reality can't help but intervene with a cap-locked "Yeah, right!" behind every other word.  ^_^;

Not only is the disbelief a problem, but the portrayal of women is one that is impossible to respect.  The story pays lipservice to the idea of a seperate culture and value system, but it's not at all easy to show women as nymphomaniacal sluts without losing their value as characters.  Even if their society, in the story, thinks it's fine, there's just too much inertia in OUR society, both on the part of the reader and on the part of the character, for that idea to be acceptable without an enormous amount of text being put into the development into the idea.  This story just doesn't justify that amount of text--the required development doesn't fit the subject material well enough to spend that much time on it.

Society in general, worldwide at this point, generally encourages monogomy.  We're raised to expect that, and to expect to love one person and be loved in return.  An exclusive relationship with very close partners is still the ideal now, even with the tremendous losses the system of marriage has suffered in the past quarter or half century.  Despite the alien philosophy in the story, sex is a large part of that idea--it's not percieved to be a purely physical thing (traditionally).  To state otherwise is to directly contradict most people's beliefs, and to automatically cheapen the relationships involved; they're not emotionally exclusive, sex is nothing more important than eating good food for the taste, etc.  There's nothing WRONG with that, but again, to fix the damage this story device causes requires a large amount of text dedicated to making the different idea acceptable--and that just doesn't seem likely here.

What's really sad about this is that I like Jyslin quite a bit.  I want to get to know her better, and I want to see her and Jason become close as their relationship progresses.  With this setup, however, I simply can't care about their relationship; it feels meaningless.

Jason doesn't have to work for anything.  He gets the girl pretty much by default, and he gets every other girl he might want by default, too.  There's no accomplishment in that.  Such happiness/fortune is meaningless.

Actually, the same is true for pretty much everything involved with Jason.  There's not even enough time put into his research for his inventions to feel worthwhile instead of like immediately granted, partially-formed desires.  "Some OJ might be nice...oh, there it is."  -_-;

On the note of liking the main love interest; Jesmind is a bitch.  She was a bitch from the very beginning.  I never liked her.  Having Tarrin in love with her was just annoying, and the large amount of text dedicated to their interractions or things related to their relationship (all the stuff that spawned her jealousy) was just frustrating.  

I just had to say that.  -_-;

Jason's seeming perfection is actually a requirement for the story.  He is a towering figure, an icon if you will, and sometimes a story needs an icon to work, not a flawed, more "normal" seeming character.  I can't really explain any more without giving too much of the story away.

Hm.  Okay.  Just keep in mind that Superman is nowhere near as interesting as Batman.  ^_^;

As far as psionic story characters with flaws go, I think Kit is probably my favorite.  He's a thief and a murderer, but in his own way he has his own kind of morality that causes him to draw the line.  He's "semi-evil," if you were, more than willing to be downright vicious in some circumstances, but in others he's much more nice, almost gentle.  He has no internal conflict about what he is, which makes him much different than Tarrin.  He is a thief and a murderer, and though he doesn't want to be anymore, he understands what he is and he accepts it as part of WHO he is.  He doesn't run from or hide from his past.  He accepts it, all but embraces it, and uses it as a teaching tool and a foundation on which to build the rest of his life.

Yeah, actually, Alpha Project is what prompted me to ask for stories about psionics.  Kit seems fun, and the one chapter just wasn't enough.  And as a big fat plus, the characters so far are all human, and there aren't tons of women whose society forces them to fall in love with Kit without him having to do anything to be worth their interest.  I like that.  :)

[avitchel]

It's funny how one can disagree vehemently with one statement and then agree wholeheartedly with the next! There were times that I personally got sick of all the whining about how cheated the poor little demi-god was. Jason was from the beginning smart, dedicated and at least had some sort of a moral compass. I think he really has some father-fixation issues, but I can still identify with him more than I can Tarrin. Fel, youve done some tremendous work with both of these stories, and they are sufficiently different, that I can see where working on one lets you recharge for the other.
I really don't want to think Thermopyle is being intentionally negative. I know that Im trying very hard not to be. First impressions of his posts seemed pretty opinionated and critical, rereading his posts I feel that I was just feeling defensive. Im rereading the Honor Harrington series right now, and Drakes character development is similar in intent to Fels. Internal conflicts, providing incentives for growth and humility. Guess I really appreciated Fels work here and wanted to acknowledge his skill.
Ive also felt Subjugation had some discordant issues, but enjoyed the interplay. Some of the tech stuff was less believable than others (chemical disruption of armor, dropping through the ceiling), but it was all enjoyable, great fun actually. The entity focus of Jason is an acceptable premise, and with his upbringing, the majority of his actions / behaviors seem reasonable. I agree that Jyslin is a much more likable character than Jasmind, but both seem lovable to me. Symone is probably my favorite Faey character, with Mist or Miranda tying for honors on the female Sennadar side. I think Fel has done a plausible job with the genetically compatible Faey women. The hunter mode for the dominant, yet conscripted species makes sense. Remembering the draft era of our not so recent past, a lot of my contemporaries plowed pretty wide fields when they were temporarily not responsible for where they were. Im pretty sure if I could control everyones mind, I would behave significantly different than I do now also. Im not too frequent a poster, but this forum is one of the most active Ive seen for an individual author. Pretty good indication of how most of feel. Thanks Fel!

[Thermopyle]

I really don't want to think Thermopyle is being intentionally negative. I know that Im trying very hard not to be. First impressions of his posts seemed pretty opinionated and critical, rereading his posts I feel that I was just feeling defensive.

I'm always negatively critical.  I've been trying to balance that problem out with positive criticism, but it's difficult for me to do.  I tend to look at something, notice what I don't like about it, list those things, and quit there.  The idea is that everything else is fine, but most people don't seem to take my comments with that in mind.  The implied "and then it'd be perfect!" after "If you fix this and this..." just seems to disappear, for some reason...  ^_^;  Doing it that way is a habit I've had for years and years, and it's hard to break.

Im rereading the Honor Harrington series right now, and Drakes character development is similar in intent to Fels. Internal conflicts, providing incentives for growth and humility.

Drake?  You mean Weber?  Anyway...:

Bah!  I don't like Weber.  He doesn't create characters, he creates character types; all his good guys have the same basic personality, and all his bad guys have the same basic personality.  Because of that, his characters blend together rather badly for me.  My sister has told me that the stories he writes with a co-author often get around that problem, since bringing other people into the authorial process seems to help individualize Weber's characters.  She especially likes John Ringo and Eric Flynt(sp?) writing with Weber.  I'll have to try them sometime, though the one John Ringo book I read, Gust Front, was NOT what I consider worth reading.  -_-;

[Lochar]

I'm always negatively critical.  I've been trying to balance that problem out with positive criticism, but it's difficult for me to do.  I tend to look at something, notice what I don't like about it, list those things, and quit there.  The idea is that everything else is fine, but most people don't seem to take my comments with that in mind.  The implied "and then it'd be perfect!" after "If you fix this and this..." just seems to disappear, for some reason...  ^_^;  Doing it that way is a habit I've had for years and years, and it's hard to break.

Ah, so you work off the theory of silence is the best compliment?  I'd rather quickly point out any flaws I see, and the spend lots of time going "Bravo!" for the rest of it.

Then again, I'm wierd.  Take everything I say with a couple blocks of salt.

[MattD]

Not only is the disbelief a problem, but the portrayal of women is one that is impossible to respect. The story pays lipservice to the idea of a seperate culture and value system, but it's not at all easy to show women as nymphomaniacal sluts without losing their value as characters. Even if their society, in the story, thinks it's fine, there's just too much inertia in OUR society, both on the part of the reader and on the part of the character, for that idea to be acceptable without an enormous amount of text being put into the development into the idea. This story just doesn't justify that amount of text--the required development doesn't fit the subject material well enough to spend that much time on it.

The issues of relationships and sex are interesting.  One of the big problems with Subjugation so far, for me, was Jason's attitude towards sex with Symone.  In all other aspects of his life he's determined to be free from Faey "subjugation"...yet here, in this one case, he suddenly feels like he needs to defer to her culture rather than forcing her to adapt to his culture.  Granted that guys can come up with all sorts of rationalizations when it comes to sleeping with a hot babe, but for Jason it felt very forced and out of character.

Having said that, it would not surprise me if as the story progresses we get the long textual explanations that you suggest -- and I agree -- are necessary to make the story work.  Beneath the plot of the first sequence of Sennadar books was the theme of a man coming to terms with being something more bestial and instinctive.  Beneath the plot of the Pyrosian books we're seeing the theme of a man coming to terms with what it means to be a demi-god.  So it would not surprise me if, as Subjugation develops, behind the plot of freeing the Earth we also see the theme of a man learning to deal with expanded mental powers and the impacts those have on all aspects of life, including sex and relationships.  The cultural ideal in modern society is that sex is an expression of a close bond -- a life bond -- between two people.  It's one of the ways we tell each other what we're thinking, what we feel.  Yet if people, through telepathy, were able to know beyond any doubt that such a bond existed, would sex continue to be such an intimate and exclusive act?  Perhaps it might; perhaps because of its link to reproduction.  Or would it become nothing more than the hugs or massages that more casual friends may exchange -- a way to express affection, relieve stress, etc.?

Now, there are a lot of ideas in Subjugation that I'm not sure I'm really sold on: blue-skinned people who are capable of reproducing with humans; a truly female-dominated society that's organized so similarly to Western patriarchal society (marriage, private property, militant and expansionist); a high-tech civilization that needs to use the Earth for growing food; a stable feudal society that has risen to such a high level of technology; a society of telepaths that accepts a feudal system; etc.  But I realize that we're essentially reading first drafts, and in serial form: I'm more than happy to give the benefit of the doubt, until I've read the whole thing.  After all, it's precisely the province of speculative fiction to challenge people's cultural inertia, and to suggest circumstances in which different ideas might be acceptable and thus force us to think about the reasons behind our own ideas.

It is a little difficult sometimes knowing what the "rights and responsibilities" are, as readers of works that are being written in the spare time of the author for mainly his own enjoyment and that are being freely distributed serially as they are written.  Does the author want our criticism, does he care about a) pleasing his audience and/or b) becoming a better "technical" writer?  Or is he happy just writing for his own pleasure and finding people who enjoy what he writes?  How do we deal with the fact that what may please me in the stories may put me in the minority?  Or that a story that is written to my exact specifications -- and which thus offers me no surprises -- may be exactly what I don't want?  Should we wait until the story is over before commenting, or is it useful to comment as the story is written?  It's questions like these that keep me from posting to the message board more often...although I check nearly every day to see if there's a new chapter!

matt

[avitchel]

Amen! Sycophant or boor? Neither title is desirable to me as a reader. I'd like to encourage Fel to continue writing, I check everyday for new postings, but I'm really looking for the next chapter. Let us know what you want Fel; constructive criticism, sincere feedback, or a feeling of community. Hopefully all the above, I'm trying to not wear the "cynical" hat today!
Thanks

[Thermopyle]

The issues of relationships and sex are interesting.  One of the big problems with Subjugation so far, for me, was Jason's attitude towards sex with Symone.  In all other aspects of his life he's determined to be free from Faey "subjugation"...yet here, in this one case, he suddenly feels like he needs to defer to her culture rather than forcing her to adapt to his culture.  Granted that guys can come up with all sorts of rationalizations when it comes to sleeping with a hot babe, but for Jason it felt very forced and out of character.

Right.  The scene with Kumi was rather questionable as well.

Having said that, it would not surprise me if as the story progresses we get the long textual explanations that you suggest -- and I agree -- are necessary to make the story work.  Beneath the plot of the first sequence of Sennadar books was the theme of a man coming to terms with being something more bestial and instinctive.  Beneath the plot of the Pyrosian books we're seeing the theme of a man coming to terms with what it means to be a demi-god.  So it would not surprise me if, as Subjugation develops, behind the plot of freeing the Earth we also see the theme of a man learning to deal with expanded mental powers and the impacts those have on all aspects of life, including sex and relationships.  The cultural ideal in modern society is that sex is an expression of a close bond -- a life bond -- between two people.  It's one of the ways we tell each other what we're thinking, what we feel.  Yet if people, through telepathy, were able to know beyond any doubt that such a bond existed, would sex continue to be such an intimate and exclusive act?  Perhaps it might; perhaps because of its link to reproduction.  Or would it become nothing more than the hugs or massages that more casual friends may exchange -- a way to express affection, relieve stress, etc.?

Oh, I agree that sexuality would be different in a telepathic race.  It just seems to me that from what has happened so far in the story that it's not going to be given that much attention.  Symone is nice, yes, but Jason seems to be just folding over for her concept of sex, he isn't opposing her attempts to hook him up with that biker woman (even though he already has a girlfriend), and he's definitely got a bit of a thing going on with Kumi.  So if there IS going to be a lot of work on the angle of telepathy changing sexuality, well, we've already passed the point where the conflict that leads into that would force the issue to be examined.

It is a little difficult sometimes knowing what the "rights and responsibilities" are, as readers of works that are being written in the spare time of the author for mainly his own enjoyment and that are being freely distributed serially as they are written.  Does the author want our criticism, does he care about a) pleasing his audience and/or b) becoming a better "technical" writer?  Or is he happy just writing for his own pleasure and finding people who enjoy what he writes?  How do we deal with the fact that what may please me in the stories may put me in the minority?  Or that a story that is written to my exact specifications -- and which thus offers me no surprises -- may be exactly what I don't want?  Should we wait until the story is over before commenting, or is it useful to comment as the story is written?  It's questions like these that keep me from posting to the message board more often...although I check nearly every day to see if there's a new chapter!

Yeah.  I actually never intended to post these comments here, for those reasons.  It's just that somebody called me on saying I didn't like Subjugation much, so I felt I needed to give an explanation.  ^_^;

matt
[/quote]

[Lochar]

Yeah.  I actually never intended to post these comments here, for those reasons.  It's just that somebody called me on saying I didn't like Subjugation much, so I felt I needed to give an explanation.  ^_^;

matt

You should always post what you like and dislike about a story.  I just think that after you get done disecting it, you should also say what ya liked.  Balance out the negative a bit.

[Forbidder]

Yeah, I think Thermopyle having explained his reasoning for his initial comment, has proven bennificial and spurred much discussion that is just as bennificial to all who reads.  I for one learned about the importance of internal conflict.  I've been writing a story that had a character with no internal conflict, and I always read back and wonder, what is wrong?  Something just isn't right.

Overall it is amazing how much these stories are being taken apart and analyzed as if they were required reading for a college level course.  I haven't listened to a discussion about societal views and impacts, and character design like this before.  I guess most of the time when I read I start with a clean slate, and just believe what the author says, and try to enjoy that world, forgetting real life.  I tend to use stories as a means to escape with reality, so the way Subjugation brings out glaring differences with mainstream society just doesn't bother me.

And I find the comment about what kind of reader/feedback is desired hitting very true.  And that question would all depend on the author, and why the author is writing.  Some may be trying to improve their writing ability, some may be trying to give readers enjoyment, some may just want to spread an idea.  Yeah.

Hehe, sorry about the weak/no conclusion...  I like doing that.  I just say stuff and then I end it without completing the full thought or something.

[Forbidder]

I think the problem is establishing the societal difference without the story coming off as mental masturbation.  Having pretty much every alien woman so far think the main character is gorgeous doesn't work well; rather than allowing the reader (me) to feel seperated from reality and submerged into a pleasant fantasy of being abnormally attractive to sexy women, the story goes so far overboard that reality can't help but intervene with a cap-locked "Yeah, right!" behind every other word.  ^_^;

I wonder what it would be like if we reversed the gender roles.  Have the faye soldiers be males but still have the exact personalities as in the story, and the the main character in this story as female.  A bunch of good looking alien guys all over a smart jason-like female human.

I guess it would come out as a tad bit wierd because human females would not act like jason.  But would anyone be bothered if all these male aliens are extremely attracted to the female main character.  I almost think this would be reguarded as normal, since society sees females as the more attractive gender, and males as the lessor attractive ones.  So a female that attracts many people would be less unbelievable than a male that attracts many people.

[Thermopyle]

I guess it would come out as a tad bit wierd because human females would not act like jason.  But would anyone be bothered if all these male aliens are extremely attracted to the female main character.  I almost think this would be reguarded as normal, since society sees females as the more attractive gender, and males as the lessor attractive ones.  So a female that attracts many people would be less unbelievable than a male that attracts many people.

Uh.  Not quite.  Read Hamilton's Anita Blake and Merry Gentry series, and her Nightwish(IIRC) book.  Both series are obscenely stupid on the male/female interraction.  It's hard not to jump up and yell "BULLSHIT!" every time the herione gets yet ANOTHER love interest.  The ridiculous level of sexual interest in the main character is far worse than anything Fel could ever write, I do believe, even if he tried.  -_-;