"Secession-"- your thoughts please

[SYED]

so a huge command ship that fits just in the gate, that can deploy fighters, satelites and weapons to guard the gate.

to speed up gate linking, use karrine ftl comm tech as a medium, that can let tthe gates communicate so build their bridge quicker. the gates allow for ftl communication in the imperium, how do the other races talk.

[DigitalMaestro]

A single stargate (yes, the file wide things) fitted with a karrinne hyperdrive engine.

Actually, a "gate ship" would make an enormous amount of sense. That concept would allow for 1 crew to be unavailable for the travel time to whatever point in the galaxy/universe rather than a full armada and it would be an instant foothold. Also, that ship could contain an interdictor ready to be activated upon arrival. This would be a great invasion/scouting vessel, although it would have to be huge... which actually makes sense for a ship on a long-term mission, to provide maximum space for its crew....

Oh, the possibilities....

-DM

Cute idea, but it wouldn't work, for two reasons:

1: Remember that although they have little mass compared to other constructions their size, Stargates are HUGE. It's a titanic concentric circle whose diameter must be larger than any ship that tries to pass through it. Think about it, if a Stargate is large enough for a command ship class ship to pass through it, then it is LARGER than the command ship. It takes a really, really big ship to tow one through hyperspace. To put jump engines on something that big would require them to make it even bigger (remember, for anyone but the Karinnes a jump engine takes up a huge amount of a ship's volume, and even for the Karinnes a jump engine is about 15% of the ship's available volume), which would take even longer for them to build them, etc. etc. etc. It's easier for them to just call in a couple of battleships and tow one than to try to put engines on it. The light mass of a Stargate makes it towable by ships smaller than itself.

2: Stargates are anchored to space in a way that makes them almost impossible to move once they're set up and operating, and it's not just "flip a switch" start up/shutdown. That's why it takes so long for a Stargate to "stage" once it gets where it's going, anchor itself into a position relative to a point in dynamic space (not absolute space), and even after it's staged, it has to link to another Stargate, and that takes a few hours depending on how far away the other Stargate is (believe it or not, the further away the other Stargate is, the faster they can link. It can take 10 hours to link Stargates within 10 light years of each other, but it would only take about an hour to link Stargates 1,000 light years apart). Since Stargates can't move for a long time when they're setting up or being prepared to be moved, putting engines on them really isn't that practical. Again, it's just easier for them to call in a battleship or two and tow it once it's movable.

Now, you have hit on something that might be viable, and viable enough to introduce it into the story later on...a dedicated Stargate tug that can attach itself to the Stargate and tow it. Basically a big module with engines that connects to the Stargate and is controlled by the Stargate's command staff itself.

I'll think about it.

Hahahahaha! First time one of my expressed thoughts has a chance to make it onto the storyline!

I do think a colony ship with a gate might be feasible in the long term, but I can see that the resources might make it impractical for time of war when manufacturing resources are at a premium. I still think an interdictor/gate combination could provide the time necessary for the gate to link since the small size of a small number of units (relative to the vastness of space) would make the odds of discovery before a significant interdiction field took effect to be small. The possibilities for a foothold situation would probably outweigh the cost of a gate and interdictor... especially if deployed in the other galaxy where the travel time from Karis is measured in years. Obviously precautions like self-destruct mechanisms, armament (possibly guard ships, possibly inherent to the station) and cloaking would be a good idea to prevent the gate falling into enemy hands, but this would be a very similar mechanism to the Karrine hyperdrives being able to overcome interdiction. The tactical advantage of having control over near instantaneous travel between galaxies would be astronomical! (pun intended) Also, a single gate is useless to the enemy in the short term. They need a second gate in the Imperium galaxy to use the Andromeda gate with if they were to capture the Andromeda gate and try to use it to reach the Imperium. Obviously the loss of tech and the possibility of reverse engineering the gate would be dire for the Confederacy, but once again, the risk may be worth the probable gain if the right preventative measures were taken.

On another thought, it seems like the usual strategy of massing gates around a capital world is nice for domestic trade, but potentially catastrophic for international access. Wouldn't it be wise to put the international gate nexus on a fortified secondary world that would not be a game changing loss?

BTW- Subjugation was the story that introduced me to Fel's works and this storyline is the most dear to me. I can hardly bear waiting for the next installments.

Thanks Fel!!

-DM

[DigitalMaestro]

Another thought, can hyperdrives from independent ships be linked in some way to combine their power? If so, perhaps a frame is a better idea than a gate-ship. Perhaps several smaller ships, of a kind that would be useful after the gate has been deposited, could be harnessed to the frame effectively making a single enormous ship with significant jump power. This would allow the kind of resource allocation that would be necessary for the single purpose of a gate-ship to be spread across a useful mini-armada of ships that could serve other purposes before and after transit.

Sorry Fel, not trying to be pushy. I just have a thing for Sci-Fi and fictitious engineering.... Colony ships have always intrigued me. The concept is pretty cool, but the execution often results in massive resource allocation for a purpose that is not always useful and this idea might provide an acceptable solution. The Galaxy class USS Enterprise from StarTrek TNG had a very interesting aspect in that the saucer with the majority of the population could flee while the other portion could take a skeleton crew into battle. Why not harness self-sufficient warships and independent vessels of a more peaceful nature into a larger cluster?

Just spewing ideas from an obsessed mind...

-DM

[Fel]

Another thought, can hyperdrives from independent ships be linked in some way to combine their power? If so, perhaps a frame is a better idea than a gate-ship. Perhaps several smaller ships, of a kind that would be useful after the gate has been deposited, could be harnessed to the frame effectively making a single enormous ship with significant jump power. This would allow the kind of resource allocation that would be necessary for the single purpose of a gate-ship to be spread across a useful mini-armada of ships that could serve other purposes before and after transit.

Sorry Fel, not trying to be pushy. I just have a thing for Sci-Fi and fictitious engineering.... Colony ships have always intrigued me. The concept is pretty cool, but the execution often results in massive resource allocation for a purpose that is not always useful and this idea might provide an acceptable solution. The Galaxy class USS Enterprise from StarTrek TNG had a very interesting aspect in that the saucer with the majority of the population could flee while the other portion could take a skeleton crew into battle. Why not harness self-sufficient warships and independent vessels of a more peaceful nature into a larger cluster?

Just spewing ideas from an obsessed mind...

-DM

Jump engines can't be linked to form some giant engine that can move much more mass, but every empire out there has the ability to sync engines among ships, so that all ships jump hyperspace at the same time. Fleet ships surrender control to the flagship, so when the flagship's pilot jumps, it jumps everyone down the line.

This is SLIGHTLY important when two ships are towing the same item. If they're not synced, then they'll lose their cargo in hyperspace.

[SYED]

Remember the enterance to the legion mountain was a small hole which allowed bigger things to enter via spatial manipulation.
What if they used this tech on the stargate, it would let them build it smaller.
ONce a gate is active in con fed space, while it could be attacked, due to indictors, they have plenty of time to send reinforcements. WHat if they build a gate, with shields in built and capable of receiving power from other side of connection.
Imagine the power of the moon yard generators kepping shields powered.
those mass affected ships can only be harmed by energy, what about one of the singularity plants rigged to blow.
Place asteroids in the ships path, at at last moment, make them phased enough to impact damage.

[ANTIcarrot]

1: Remember that although they have little mass compared to other constructions their size, Stargates are HUGE.

Minor nitpick: Comercial Stargates are huge. Miles across. They're designed for massive quantities of shipping; and with a large margin of error for rapid transit and somewhat poor piloting skills. A tactical stargate doesn't need to be huge. You've implied on a couple of ocassions that Faey warships at least are much longer than they are wide. A 500m wide circle would be big, but not compared to a 1600m long ship; which might have 50m clearance on each side.

Now, you have hit on something that might be viable, and viable enough to introduce it into the story later on...a dedicated Stargate tug that can attach itself to the Stargate and tow it. Basically a big module with engines that connects to the Stargate and is controlled by the Stargate's command staff itself.

I still think a Karrinne 'outboard engine' would make sense for the bigger ships. Not as a permanant fixture, but something like a Tank Transporter. If fast-jump engines are 15% of the mass, then for the cost of one karrinne battleship, you can build 5 tugs that could fast-jump 5 allied battleships to a staging post, then go back and get another 5, and another 5, and another 5... After a day you could have twenty ships, and while they'd still be limited to 'local' actions, that's in many ways far more valuable than one. If you had the choice, would you have 20 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iowa_class ... ship]iowas, or one http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zumwalt_class]zumwalt?

Given that Karrinne can't find crews for the ships that they're building, doesn't it make sense to instead build better enablers for the already built ships which already have crews? Just saying.

[Hearly]

Why do you need something Huge to move a stargate? couldn't you just ship it in prefabbed pieces and assemble it there? I mean why couldn't you have it in 8 separate pieces with just the ends all designed to plug into the other pieces?

[Isengrim]

1: Remember that although they have little mass compared to other constructions their size, Stargates are HUGE.

Minor nitpick: Comercial Stargates are huge. Miles across. They're designed for massive quantities of shipping; and with a large margin of error for rapid transit and somewhat poor piloting skills. A tactical stargate doesn't need to be huge. You've implied on a couple of ocassions that Faey warships at least are much longer than they are wide. A 500m wide circle would be big, but not compared to a 1600m long ship; which might have 50m clearance on each side.

Now, you have hit on something that might be viable, and viable enough to introduce it into the story later on...a dedicated Stargate tug that can attach itself to the Stargate and tow it. Basically a big module with engines that connects to the Stargate and is controlled by the Stargate's command staff itself.

I still think a Karrinne 'outboard engine' would make sense for the bigger ships. Not as a permanant fixture, but something like a Tank Transporter. If fast-jump engines are 15% of the mass, then for the cost of one karrinne battleship, you can build 5 tugs that could fast-jump 5 allied battleships to a staging post, then go back and get another 5, and another 5, and another 5... After a day you could have twenty ships, and while they'd still be limited to 'local' actions, that's in many ways far more valuable than one. If you had the choice, would you have 20 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iowa_class ... ship]iowas, or one http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zumwalt_class]zumwalt?

Given that Karrinne can't find crews for the ships that they're building, doesn't it make sense to instead build better enablers for the already built ships which already have crews? Just saying.

Based on the numbers at the beginning of Subjugation the ratio of length to width is 8 : 3 and that describes a pair of ships of a class not mentioned each 2 miles long. Given comments later it is unlikely these are Command Battleships. So the largest ship is more than 3/4 of a mile across and could be several miles across easily. Therefore a Stargate intended for military use probably has to be at least a couple miles across, which is huge compared to almost any other spaceship.

At a simple level of analysis tugs do make more sense than ships, but I'm not sure how well that would stand up to detailed analysis. First there is the question of combat effectiveness. How much more effective is a single Karinne battleship compared to regular battleships? The greater then difference the less valuable tugs are. Also, how are the regular battleships getting into the fight? If the tugs have to pull them into the fight then the action will involve waves of regular battleships, which is generally less effective than attacking together. If the battleships are jumping themselves into action then they must be outside of an interdictor and they're probably too far away from home to effectively get back home. The second of those isn't the sort of thing I'd expect Dahnai's general staff to like.

If I have to choose between 20 Iowas or 1 Zumwalt, I'll take the Iowas. If I have to choose between 20 HMS Duke of Wellingtons and 1 USS Monitor, I think I'd rather have the Monitor.

[ANTIcarrot]

I did say 'fast-jump to a staging post' for a reason. Once you're assembled your 20 battleship and fleet auxilluries in safety, you jump them together to the target, just like you do with Tank Transporters.

If I have to choose between 20 Iowas or 1 Zumwalt, I'll take the Iowas. If I have to choose between 20 HMS Duke of Wellingtons and 1 USS Monitor, I think I'd rather have the Monitor.

I wouldn't. The Wellingtons are far more flexible, seaworthy, manouverable, and faster, and able to absorb more damage. I also have 19 spare parts for everything. Once they pull up alongside, or dissapear over the horizon, the Monitor has effectively lost. Ditto if it takes damage in just the wrong place, or hits a big wave and sink because of that top heavy turret; which was the fate of the origonal Monitor.

[SYED]

WHy would they need a huge stargate, with the new tech, fighters from all races will be developed, capable of hurting the enemy. THey dont have the capital ships to fight, but fighters would allow them to attack head on, if they had the backing of karrine and kimdori capital ships. easy to develop and mass produce.

Build a gate to allow the launcing of fighters, bombers and gun ships, that would devestate the consortium.

[ANTIcarrot]

WHy would they need a huge stargate, with the new tech, fighters from all races will be developed, capable of hurting the enemy.

For one reason: Jason and House Karrine would then become very unimportant. You have to remember that in practical terms they're a tiny nation. They can't even match the bulk industrial output of pre imperial earth. If everyone can field effective weapons it became a numbers game, and then they drop off the radar.

[dellstart]

yeah true, but karrines worth was never measured by mere numbers.

[Javna]

The way they are going at it right now, they don't have to wait long till they are more then enough of Karrinens. If they survive the this war that is.

[SYED]

If they shared the real space catapult, they can track and intercpt if necessay, also limits strategies.
ONly one ahead would be kimdori and karrines.
ALl the races are gonna get exposed to consortium tech, so jason could ask for the queen to arrange for full tech databases be shared with cybi from every race.
It will take along time to full integrate any consortium tech, so some lee way for the karrines, but best solution if for cybi to use her ability to create hybrid tech.
How hard would it be to build a catapult, can it be sent via a gate.
WHen fleet is sent by consortium, the confederation would would marshall their full fleet, their capital ship backing up their fighter ships.

THey have to be able to match a 20000 strong fleet. WHile fllet in motion, head to their held systems and deal with them. THen return for battle. say at minimum, 10 fighters are needed for each ship, for a sole fighter fleet to win, 200,000 ship are needed. THe karrine ships need to be protected, as well as the kimdori as they are the only ones capable of freely jumping.

those with the biggest fleets may try it on with the smaller, trying to expand.

the indictor halts their expansion could cause trouble.

[Wolfee]

Personally I'm in favor of the Tactical stargates for 3 reason.

1. You don't need a carrier. You simply fly in the the dedicated dreadnaught/gateship activate it - and out pours a torrent of fighters. A smaller stargate should anchor a lot quicker... not to mention 1k light years is a spit in the bucket in galactic terms, so find some place thats even further away... might be practical within our own quadrant - however at even further distances the gate might almost instanta anchor.
2. Within a singularity of you have a shielded stargate, the shielding being powered by the blackwhole itself. You turn on the stargate and aim it at the enemy coming over the horizon and "Blam" said the lady - instant FTL weapon. As recent tests have shown, gravity is faster than light.
3. Orbiting a pulsar you have another stargate, this gate shielding is also powered by the pulsar. Turning on the gate at the other and and you get to bombard the enemy fleet or planet with a torrent of xray's so powerful nothing could shield against it.

Back to the original topic of "Secession" for some reason, Jason has the twins out searching again... I wonder what exactly they are going to find? Hrmm? One does wonder.