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The only problem that I can see with Kyven being permenantly human is that dyanna (however you spell his loreguard love interest*) is currently arcan. It takes somebody's humanity to turn one of the shadowfox arcans back into a human. So either the shadowfox is going to need to get another human to donate their humanity, or Kyven is going to need to give up his humanity to turn back into a shadowfox. I don't know what parts of the shadowfox's statement was a lie regarding diana (don't know the spelling*) having to deliver a litter of pups first before she would be turned back into a human, and I can only expect that kyven as a shadowfox would be the father.

Anticarrot is on the right track I believe when you think about how the shadow powers came into existance and how they are passed on.

1. We know that the Shadow Fox Spirit created the Shadow Fox Monsters. Now more then likely she didn't make them out of whole cloth but transformed a normal fox into one, similar to Kyvens Transformation to a Shadowfox Arcan. At the time when she created them she gifted them with the Shadow Powers.

2. We know that the Shadow powers are transferable from parent to child as shown by Umbra. She was a Shadow Fox Monster that had those powers before being made an Arcan and she also had parents and not made by the Shadow Fox. Now this tells you that the powers have to be linked to DNA some way because that is that is what is given by the parents to make a child.

3. So when you look at points 1 and 2 you can see a possibility that what the Shadow Fox did when she made the Monsters and turned Kyven into an Arcan was intorduce part of her own DNA into those beings. That is where the Shadow powers reside and when she returned Kyven to being human she didn't make him fully human but a hybrid, leaving that little bit of DNA behind that grants the powers.

That leaves the interesting possibility that Danna doesn't have the Shadow powers because all the Shadow Fox did was switch Danna's humaninty with Kyvens Arcan nature but left the Shadow powers in Kyven. Now Kyven and Umbra's children they have the Shadow powers since both parents had them when they were conceived. Also what if the Shadow Fox leads Kyven to breed with another human now like she did with that prostitute? Would the child get the Shadow Powers since Kyven still have them and not just be a human shaman? As to the humanity needed to make Danna human again I say the Shadow Fox is looking at Toby for that.

boballab wrote:3. So when you look at points 1 and 2 you can see a possibility that what the Shadow Fox did when she made the Monsters and turned Kyven into an Arcan was intorduce part of her own DNA into those beings. That is where the Shadow powers reside and when she returned Kyven to being human she didn't make him fully human but a hybrid, leaving that little bit of DNA behind that grants the powers.

This makes a supposition that the Shadowfox, and all spirits, have DNA or some equivalent... and that there would be a way for Kyven's body to interpret a change in his genome to suddenly include some radical new function. I lean more toward something akin to a magical imprint on the shadow fox species that permits them to have some beneficial trait. Remember that Kyven has detected a trace of magic in all the shadow experiments that he has done - that he feels a magical conduit that is similar to when he is granted power from his totem, but it is a direct channel of magic instead. I do think there is an inheritance aspect, but I am not sure it would be at a DNA level... rather that magic works in, well, magical ways, and the ability to access the powers are transferred magically... maybe it's midichloreans

Actually your example supports my theory. Remember being a Shaman is a matter of DNA, if you don't have the genetics you can't be a shaman. The difference between the Shadow powers and Shaman magic is that the energy for Shaman magic has to come from either a crystal or from a spirit and the energy for the Shadow Powers comes from the Spirit Realm itself. The Spirit realm is a realm of energy and all the shadow powers do is tap that energy directly. Also if it was a magical graft it wouldn't pass on to children, the only thing the parents pass to the child is chromosomes and it was through careful manipulation and breeding that the Spirits were able to make a Human Shaman. Remember the prostitute was just below the threshold needed to be a Shaman herself and that is why the Shadow Fox picked her to have Kyven's child. Also the Shadow Fox took a Shadow Fox Monster to make Umbra, something that had the right genetics to pass the Shadow powers on.

I will concede the point of DNA inheritance, however, I don't think the Shadowfox Spirit _has_ DNA to introduce into Kyven. Perhaps she was able to preserve some of the DNA from the Shadowfox Arcan he was when transferred back into human form?

miraborn wrote:I will concede the point of DNA inheritance, however, I don't think the Shadowfox Spirit _has_ DNA to introduce into Kyven. Perhaps she was able to preserve some of the DNA from the Shadowfox Arcan he was when transferred back into human form?

As to preserving some of that DNA when she turned him back to human I agree since it was already there just leave it and work around. However that brings as back to when she turned him Arcan, when she did that he was 100% Human. Now here is three quotes where the Shadow Fox mentions the Shadow Powers (not directly) to Kyven and where she is also talking about giving them to the shadow fox monsters.

I am the spirit of the shadow fox, and it was by my will that the shadow foxes came to be in the world.

They have the power to meld with the shadows, making them invisible in the night. That is how they hunt.

“A sensible way to go about it,” he noted. “Do they eat crystals?”
No. They absorb the energy to grant them that power from the spirit world. It is a minor power and does not require so much energy as a crystal holds to enact. It is for them the same as spirit sight is for you, a passive ability.

I underlined the two significant parts. The first one is that she made the Monsters, so everything they are goes back to her. The second talks about the powers being a passive ability like spirit sight. Now we know Kyven was able to use spirit sight since he was a small child because it is ingrained into him because of his genetics. That was something the Fox could only take away from him when she changed him with her bite if she wanted to strip him of the DNA that made him a shaman. Now when she was done she said this, which at the time was cryptic but when added to what we know now about the powers and the monsters gives it new meaning.

As I have taken, so have I given in return. Use my gift wisely.”

She said she gave in return, so what could she give? My theory: the same thing she gave to the monsters the DNA to use her shadow powers. remember the Shadow Fox appears and disappears on him unlike the other spirits Kyven has seen.

The shadows of the night seemed to darken around her, until only her eyes were visible.

they either move away while he sees them (Like the Eagle in the last chapter) or disappear when his back is turned or when he stops using the spirit sight (like the Cat back in the first chapter of Spirit). The Fox does that right in front of him and when she uses the Shadow Powers it negates his spirit sight just like it did when she pulled him through the shadows in Avannar.

His spirit sight seemed to fail him, as the light of the life on the bridge above seemed to dim, to darken, to get lost in the shadows surrounding him, and then the shadows receded.

Remember the Spirit World and our world overlay each other, the spirits are alwys there, moving around just like poeople. So if Kyven has his spirit sight on he would see any spirit in the vincinity but since the Shadow powers defeat Spirit sight she can hide from him. Which points something else out : Kyven could hide in the shadows even from other Shaman since they wouldn't be able to see him with Spirit sight, which only sees living objects even behind inaminate ones.

boballab wrote:2. We know that the Shadow powers are transferable from parent to child as shown by Umbra. She was a Shadow Fox Monster that had those powers before being made an Arcan and she also had parents and not made by the Shadow Fox. Now this tells you that the powers have to be linked to DNA some way because that is that is what is given by the parents to make a child.

Not everything is encoded into DNA. All mammals have and need parasites in their gut to help digest food. In the real world a lot of basic cellular chemistry is 'inherited' via cellular mitosis (when the egg and sperm form) which has little to do with DNA. Also, if we postulate a second vector-component to a creature (or a symbiote) it's entirely reasonable to postulate a second form of inheritance.

Point 3 does not necessarily follow from 1 & 2. We have been told the spirits took little interest in the mortal realm before the breach. If this includes Shadow Fox (and is, you know, not a big pile of horse manure) then before the Breach the being we now know as Shadow Fox had nothing to do with foxes, and might not have had anything to do with shadows. It's very possible the ability to interact with shadow at some basic level was 'evolved' by 'normal' foxes not long after the breach, and Shadow Fox then adopted this species and it's abilities as her own.

That leaves the interesting possibility that Danna doesn't have the Shadow powers because all the Shadow Fox did was switch Danna's humaninty with Kyvens Arcan nature but left the Shadow powers in Kyven.

Again we're going back to the Earth Air Fire Water system of biology, which I truly feel is a flawed model, even for magical creatures, as I've previously stated in other chapter topics. One big problem is that in order for 'powers' to be inheritable, as we assume that are, they absoluitely must be encodable as digital information. Which means there is no 'move' only 'write', 'delete', and 'copy', and infinite copies can be made without any loss of data/capacity. This is where the 'gut bacteria' analogy makes more sense. If the powers are caused by a living symbiote (a spirit 'animal' linked to a body) then you can only grow so much at once, and can't duplicate it quickly. In which case all Shadow Fox needs to do is not install the link between Danna's brain and the symbiote, or damage the link afterward.

As to the humanity needed to make Danna human again I say the Shadow Fox is looking at Toby for that.

Ha! Good luck. I doubt that Toby is the type to sign anything without first reading it himself, and having a lawyer look it over. That will not be an option in this case except through the shaman, and Danna's current condition is pretty damn good evidence that the shaman will lie, cheat, mislead, and dissemble for their spirits at the drop of a hat. Firetail didn't seem the least bit surprised when Shadow Fox 'rewrote the agreement' which meant she knew Danna was getting a stiff deal and yet persuaded her this was a good idea anyway.

boballab wrote:2. We know that the Shadow powers are transferable from parent to child as shown by Umbra. She was a Shadow Fox Monster that had those powers before being made an Arcan and she also had parents and not made by the Shadow Fox. Now this tells you that the powers have to be linked to DNA some way because that is that is what is given by the parents to make a child.

Not everything is encoded into DNA. All mammals have and need parasites in their gut to help digest food. In the real world a lot of basic cellular chemistry is 'inherited' via cellular mitosis (when the egg and sperm form) which has little to do with DNA. Also, if we postulate a second vector-component to a creature (or a symbiote) it's entirely reasonable to postulate a second form of inheritance.

Point 3 does not necessarily follow from 1 & 2. We have been told the spirits took little interest in the mortal realm before the breach. If this includes Shadow Fox (and is, you know, not a big pile of horse manure) then before the Breach the being we now know as Shadow Fox had nothing to do with foxes, and might not have had anything to do with shadows. It's very possible the ability to interact with shadow at some basic level was 'evolved' by 'normal' foxes not long after the breach, and Shadow Fox then adopted this species and it's abilities as her own.

One further note on this topic... I half wonder what would happen if Danna meet Kyven now. She didn't feel any attraction for him as a male arcan. (Yes, I know. Just pretend for a moment.) Will she feel attraction for him now that he's human? If they did sleep together, I half wonder if Shadow Fox would then turn up and say, "Of course Kyven is one of my children, and male... <shrug> Close enough. Poof! you're pregnant."

That leaves the interesting possibility that Danna doesn't have the Shadow powers because all the Shadow Fox did was switch Danna's humaninty with Kyvens Arcan nature but left the Shadow powers in Kyven.

Again we're going back to the Earth Air Fire Water system of biology, which I truly feel is a flawed model, even for magical creatures, as I've previously stated in other chapter topics. One big problem is that in order for 'powers' to be inheritable, as we assume that are, they absoluitely must be encodable as digital information. Which means there is no 'move' only 'write', 'delete', and 'copy', and infinite copies can be made without any loss of data/capacity. This is where the 'gut bacteria' analogy makes more sense. If the powers are caused by a living symbiote (a spirit 'animal' linked to a body) then you can only grow so much at once, and can't duplicate it quickly. In which case all Shadow Fox needs to do is not install the link between Danna's brain and the symbiote, or damage the link afterward.

As to the humanity needed to make Danna human again I say the Shadow Fox is looking at Toby for that.

Ha! Good luck. I doubt that Toby is the type to sign anything without first reading it himself, and having a lawyer look it over. That will not be an option in this case except through the shaman, and Danna's current condition is pretty damn good evidence that the shaman will lie, cheat, mislead, and dissemble for their spirits at the drop of a hat. Firetail didn't seem the least bit surprised when Shadow Fox 'rewrote the agreement' which meant she knew Danna was getting a stiff deal and yet persuaded her this was a good idea anyway.[/quote]

The mouse completely exhausted three shockrods after an hour, but she and the cats had pulled up enough of those wide-finned blue-scaled fish to feed them all quite well.

Would those be dolphins, sharks or something else?

zedd wrote:

The mouse completely exhausted three shockrods after an hour, but she and the cats had pulled up enough of those wide-finned blue-scaled fish to feed them all quite well.

Would those be dolphins, sharks or something else?

Dolphins do not have scales, they are mammals. Sharks also don't have large visible scales - Their skin is like sandpaper (it was actually used like sandpaper before sandpaper was invented)

Possibly Tuna.