Subjugation in the rest of the world

[Phantom]

Speaking of stuff hitting the fan--remember Jason admitted on an open frequency that he was within telepathy range of a cargo ship that was about to jump into hyperspace. The marine dispatcher even took notes on the ship name. No one has questioned how he could have been where he had to have been and why he was not detected. The Faey have to know he has cloaking abitily and probably that he has talent to have detected the presence of human slaves, but it got hushed up pretty good, didn't it?

Norm Gober

Jason never said anything about Telepathy
As you can see in this Quote from Chapter 10

He counted the minutes, watching his rear display as he raced back to the planetary orbit as his mind
swam and what could only be called rage burned inside him. Hed never been so angry, never in his life.
He was so furious that it took everything in him to keep from turning around and attacking that cargo ship.
But that would be a pointless, hollow gesture that would just get him killed and accomplish absolutely
nothing. The only thing he could do now was turn to the only Faey that could help, and that was the
Imperium. Jyslin and her aunt Lorna were the only ones that could save those people.
The instant he was in range of the comm satellites, he was pounding the keys of his holographic
keyboard as the skimmer flew on autopilot. He first tried Jyslins new phone number for her apartment in
Washington, but she wasnt home. He tried her panel, and was redirected to her Marine Barracks
headquarters. An armored Faey answered the call, a pretty young Marine with gray hair and amber-yellow
eyes, wearing a headset. Fort Lee Marine Barracks, she said in a pleasant manner.
Patch me through to Sergeant Jyslin Shaddale now, he said with an intense look at her. I dont care
where she is or what shes doing. This is an emergency!
May I ask whos calling? she asked, her face turning serious. And what kind of emergency?
Should I direct her to a hospital?
I dont have time for you! he snapped at her. Patch me through now! I dont care how you do it!
I can get you audio only, she said, looking down. Hold on.
Sergeant Shaddale, Jyslins voice called over the picture, though the answering Marines face did
not disappear.
Jyslin! Jason barked.
Jason? Jason! What the hell are you doing calling me through barracks! Are you nuts!?
Call your aunt Lorna now! he snapped at her. Shes the only one who can stop them before they
can get away!
Stop who? Whats wrong?
House Trillane is selling people as slaves! he literally shouted at the monitor.
What? Why do you think that?
I saw it with my own eyes! he raged at her. Theres a cargo ship parked beyond the supply station
in orbit called Brestas Pride. Have your aunt stop that ship, and youll find humans on it!
In his rearview monitor, he saw that cargo ship start turning. The dropship suddenly doubled its speed.
Shit! Im on an open frequency, and theyre receiving me! The ships about to bug out, Jyslin! Have
someone stop it!
Ihold on, she said. Im not sure I believe you, Jason, but Ill call Lorna and tell her what you
said. Give me a second, shes within my sending range.
You dont believe me? Why the hell wouldnt you believe me? You think Id do something like call
you over an open frequency and give myself away over something I wasnt absolutely sure about? Think,
woman!
Shut up a second! she barked, and Jason saw that the operator, still on the line and still looking at
him, was now furiously typing under the view of the camera.
That cargo ships registered as an independent vessel, that operator told both of them. Licensed
under the Umrani Collective, currently under contract from Trillane to move food, replacing a cargo vessel
that had an accident and is undergoing repairs. Itum, shit, it says here it has an onboard jump gate. All it
has to do is get outside the planetary gravity well, and it can jump out without using the stargate.
Well, they better hurry, because its on the move as we speak, Jason growled.
Im sorry, but Lorna says that she has no doubt that you believe what you say, but she cant order a
ship stopped and searched on the word of a wanted fugitive, Jyslin told him, rather reluctantly. She
promises to have someone look into your allegations, though. If Trillane is secretly engaged in the slave
trade, the Empress would blow a primary coil.
Jason gave the operator a murderous look, and the woman shrank back from the monitor on her side,
visibly going pale. I pass over a chance to stop that dropship myself, I risk my neck to call you, and all I
get is Im sorry? he said in absolute outrage. Is that what Lornas going to tell the people in that ship,
about to be sold like cattle? Im sorry? Well thats not good enough! he screamed, jerking the skimmer
around so hard that it crushed him into his chair. If you wont stop them, then god damn it, I will! Even if
I have to ram that fucking ship! He rocketed towards the cargo ship at maximum speed, which was now
moving visibly, moving with deceptive slowness away from him, but that was only a trick of size and
distance. He had no doubt that the ship was moving at maximum speed, but its size made it appear to move
much slower than it actually was.
Jason! Jason, dont do anything stupid! Jyslin all but pleaded. Im talking to Lorna right now!
Just give me some time, please!
The ship before him grew slightly smaller, and then something happened. A strange reddish glow
surrounded the vessel completely, like an aura of fire, and then the ship simply vanished.
Its gone! Jason gasped. It was right in front of me!
It must have jumped out, Jyslin told him.

They still don't know for sure Jason has Talent he States he "Saw" them.

Your right about the Operator or Duty person noting the info.  


As for knowing about the Cloak there weren't any other ships close by and Jason could have been back inside Earth Airspace before sensors could be brought to bear on his possible location.

And Jason has Friends Helping to misdirect info about him and any capability's he may have.

How ever it did expose the fact that he has and still operates his airskimmer.  


Phantom

[Forbidder]

I really don't see the part about the operator noting anything, for all we know she might have be googling up the registry number on the aformentioned ship.

The operator knows, and whoever reviews the communication logs will know, but buracracy by the aliens is pretty much like buracracy by the humans, who in the world actually review logs unless there was an investigation?  And the initial Jason investigation peaked and slumped.  They are listening for any new information.  The initial look through all the logs phase is over, and I don't think even the Fey have the alien power to periodically review all the logs of all communication with everyone from a particular planet that often.  And the reviewers probably end up belonging to the science group anyway.

Plus the communication will just look like it came from the communication array that Jason used.  It'll have a angle/power vector of the origin of the broadcast transmission, and it'll show empty space, which just means jason learned how to echo reflect his transmissions so that it appears to originate from a virtual source.  like the concept of virtual images and lenses and mirrors, if Jason can bounce the transmissions right and get the interferrence patterns right, he can make the source look like it's comming from anywhere.  Of course with triangulation it will be much more difficult to use a virtual source.  But if the power is low enough, by the time it passes the closest comm satellite, the energy should be no greater than residual background energy, preventing triangulation from being used.

If all else, Jason can just launch a micro tranciever to where he made the call, and they'll think Jason used that.

[ANTIcarrot]

Getting away from Jason again...

In the third world human organisations like Medican Sans Frontare, Red Cresent, Oxfam, are probably going strong, and in places giving orders to the local Faey. In England the House Guards will probably still be wearing their black fur hats and carrying their SA-80s without interuption. As will other cerimonial/meusium organisations.

Taking over a well organised place like North America or Western Europe would be easy. (Political mortal enemies do this kind of thing all the time every few years or so. ^.^ ) I doubt the Faey would have the slightest idea how to cope with the problems in some parts of the world, and are letting the existing human organisations get on with it until they can play catch up.

Personally I do have a couple of fun ideas for what's happening outside North America, but it's a little too early in the day for fan fics.

ANTIcarrot.

[MechCraft]

I wonder what the fey thought of the australian culture.
and our easy going nature, but i bet they are oblivious to our drive when things go bad...eg. aussie soldiers were called diggers in WW2, because we duggin and held our goals and ideals.

if it comes down to a fight between fey and human telepaths, would that come back and bite them, because they dident take into consideration of our history....

[zedd]

I think the Faey objective when taking Terra were:
  . take it with minimum strength
  . cause as little damage as possible to population and infrastructure
  . create food farms, relocate population and do the terraforming necessary to get a viable ecosystem in all the planet


With their previous experience at colonizing other worlds i think they would look at this action thorously and for a long time. imlanting kimdori for some time, observing from orbit, analyzing everything, etc ...

They probably had Faey telepath in place to take control of key people to avoid panic reaction (like launching nuclear/chimical weapons)

[Phantom]

Getting away from Jason again...

In the third world human organisations like Medican Sans Frontare, Red Cresent, Oxfam, are probably going strong, and in places giving orders to the local Faey. In England the House Guards will probably still be wearing their black fur hats and carrying their SA-80s without interuption. As will other cerimonial/meusium organisations.

Taking over a well organised place like North America or Western Europe would be easy. (Political mortal enemies do this kind of thing all the time every few years or so. ^.^ ) I doubt the Faey would have the slightest idea how to cope with the problems in some parts of the world, and are letting the existing human organisations get on with it until they can play catch up.

Personally I do have a couple of fun ideas for what's happening outside North America, but it's a little too early in the day for fan fics.

ANTIcarrot.

Nope Fel Pretty much took care of all of those in the first couple of pages as seen in this Quote from the prolog on page 1

All Terran
governments were dissolved, replaced by a feudalist system where a Faey noble held absolute power over his or her territory. At first, the humans held hope that their conquerors could somehow be overthrown, but it was a feeble one. In two months, the Faey Occupational Forces wiped out every band of organized resistance, leaving the humans with nothing but grim resignation of the lot that had been dealt to them.
The changes were drastic. Human society was allowed to continue to function, at least after a fashion.

Fel tells us that all of those organizations you wrote about are no longer around all of them were wiped out in the first 2 months.
and also on that page he tells us the Extent of this control and the area it covers.

Entire cities were depopulated and razed to make room for farms, and the middle sections of America became nothing but a vast collection of large collective farms. Every open space became a farm, even inhospitable areas like deserts and tundra, from the northern reaches of Canada and Russia all the way to the southern tips of Africa and South America.

Also i would tend to bet that a Minor Faey Noble is living in Winsor Castle.  Who knows what happened to the Queen of England she and all of her house may be working in the Castle gardens now if not some Faey farm somewhere.

Phantom

[ANTIcarrot]

In two months, the Faey Occupational Forces wiped out every band of organized resistance, leaving the humans with nothing but grim resignation of the lot that had been dealt to them.
The changes were drastic. Human society was allowed to continue to function, at least after a fashion.

Except the introduction is a little... contradictory. If the Faey were really that all powerful they would never have needed to invade Earth in the first place. This can be explained in a few ways:
1) They Faey are taught to avoid creative thinking, and don't realise what their technology could really do if applied diferently.
2) Jason is telling us a distorted version of what happened.
3) Fel didn't know where Subjegation was going when he wrote it, and some of it has become redundant.

Also i would tend to bet that a Minor Faey Noble is living in Winsor Castle.  Who knows what happened to the Queen of England she and all of her house may be working in the Castle gardens now if not some Faey farm somewhere.  

Oh no no no no no, I couldn't disagree more. The Faey seem to have an interest in all things human, like the victorian had an interest in things African and Asian. It is very likely the faey nobility will want to preserve the pretty little baubles they find on Earth - particularly ones with tourist potential. So I'd bet the opposite. ^.^

ANTIcarrot.

[Phantom]

Except the introduction is a little... contradictory. If the Faey were really that all powerful they would never have needed to invade Earth in the first place. This can be explained in a few ways:
1) They Faey are taught to avoid creative thinking, and don't realise what their technology could really do if applied diferently..

Not true if you go back and reread the first few chapters Jason's teacher tells jason how he is different from the Faey techs.  

The Faey are traped in a kind of a Rut because they have been taught their tech one way.... they have been told your can do this but can't do this.  Someone decided that something couldn't be done and thats the way they have been taught.

Jason hasn't learned all of the teaching yet so he has no idea if something can or can't be done yet  :)

2) Jason is telling us a distorted version of what happened..

Maybe....Maybe not.  Some is recounting history some is as jason see's it unfolding

3) Fel didn't know where Subjegation was going when he wrote it, and some of it has become redundant..

Only Fel can answer this one but with all the thought he put in the calendar and Other races I can't beleive he had no idea the direction he wanted to go... How he gets from Point A to Point B to Point C.     Thats just the flow of the story...
Little sidetrips now and then but still leading in the same direction.  I personaly don't see too much redundancy.

Oh no no no no no, I couldn't disagree more. The Faey seem to have an interest in all things human, like the victorian had an interest in things African and Asian. It is very likely the faey nobility will want to preserve the pretty little baubles they find on Earth - particularly ones with tourist potential. So I'd bet the opposite. ^.^

ANTIcarrot.

I never said Winsor castle would be gone ...just the Queen wouldn't be there ...a Faey Noble would be living there in her place.  besides Tourism is not a big Money maker for House trillane.  Farming, Slaving and the like make $$$ so much more eaisly  remember the Faey removed any citys located in Rich farming areas.  

They left the Forests to return to nature.    It's Balance.
it's like Jason Living in Yellowstone park.
They are Faey nature perserves...
true there are Squatters and some troublemakers living out there but they aren't worth the $$$ or the Manpower to remove and reprogram... YET!  
thats why the Faey sweep it so little... With the Active and passive Sensor's that sweep the area all the time they don't have too.. they just sit back untill it show's up on their scans  and then someone go's out and removes it.


Phantom

[Shadowhawk]

The Faey are traped in a kind of a Rut because they have been taught their tech one way.... they have been told your can do this but can't do this.  Someone decided that something couldn't be done and thats the way they have been taught.

Jason hasn't learned all of the teaching yet so he has no idea if something can or can't be done yet  :)

[censored]. I'm sick of this [censored] stupid preconception that somehow knowledge gets in the way of new ideas. First, knowing what is sure no-go prevents wasting time on things like perpetuum mobile. Second, so called common sense (as it is based on what we perceive with our own eyes) is usually more an obstacle (see: quantum mechanics, general and special relativity). Third in sciences (at least on Earth) contesting assumptions (knowing of course that they are assumptions) is "built-in" in teaching science.

Rant, rant, rant.

Edit: title changed

[Forbidder]

[censored]. I'm sick of this [censored] stupid preconception that somehow knowledge gets in the way of new ideas. First, knowing what is sure no-go prevents wasting time on things like perpetuum mobile. Second, so called common sense (as it is based on what we perceive with our own eyes) is usually more an obstacle (see: quantum mechanics, general and special relativity). Third in sciences (at least on Earth) contesting assumptions (knowing of course that they are assumptions) is "built-in" in teaching science.

Of course I totally agree if you're talking about valid knowledge, but what if the knowledge is invalid or misleading?  Like how there was a time where everyone was taught that the world was flat, and to go against that idea was to go against the church.  This kind of knowledge truely hinders.

How about cold fusion?  It's coming out of the disreputable category and is actually a valid scientific question, but for years, academia and reputable scientists would laugh or scoff at people who believed it was valid to study any phenomenon related to it.  The name cold fusion became a permanent automatic discreditation if it somehow got associated with the person.  This kind of knowledge is definately a block or hinderance of some sort.

Creativity is definately supressed by hindering type knowledge.  Think of a warrior, who is taught how to use a spear in battle, and the many ways to injure the enemy with a spear.  Now you give that warrior a plot of land and tell him that he needs to grow plants on it, I wonder how he would go about doing it.  Would he ever think of the spear as a farming tool?  Or would he have so much ideas about the spear as a weapon ingrained into him that the notion is overlooked very easily?  Give the same spear to a farmer who's only farmed, and he'll probably use it to poke holes so he can drop seeds into the ground.

As an excercise, try to list as many different uses for a pen that you can, uses like taking notes, drawing, outlining, and I'll bet there are some uses for a pen that little kids who has no ingrained notions of the proper uses for a pen can come up with and it wouldn't be on your list.

I'm thinking, what if the speed of light isn't constant?  Would the knowledge that the speed of light is constant screw us up?

Um I think i'm just tossing ideas out.  But certainly both sides of the issue are true, some ideas are helpful, some ideas hinder.  Generalizations just doesn't cover everything.

[Shadowhawk]

Of course I totally agree if you're talking about valid knowledge, but what if the knowledge is invalid or misleading?  Like how there was a time where everyone was taught that the world was flat, and to go against that idea was to go against the church.  This kind of knowledge truely hinders.

That what it makes science is that the only arbiter about if theory is right or wrong is the universe itself. Does the theory agrees with experiments and observations (in the case of physics, biology, chemistry) or is it proven (in the case of mathematics)? Is the theory elegant (that is seroius thing since special relativity)?

To quote Isaac Newton: "If I have seen farther than others, it is because I was standing on the shoulders of giants."

There is no way you can in current times make any new ideas without incorporating knowledge; knowledge special to the domain.

How about cold fusion?  It's coming out of the disreputable category and is actually a valid scientific question, but for years, academia and reputable scientists would laugh or scoff at people who believed it was valid to study any phenomenon related to it.  The name cold fusion became a permanent automatic discreditation if it somehow got associated with the person.  This kind of knowledge is definately a block or hinderance of some sort.

What about cold fusion? It was and is pseudo-science and hoax all the way from the beginning to the pitiful end. Publishing the result first to the press, and not scientific journals (when it gets reviewed). Not having valid (even if cursory) scientific explanation of the phenomena (yes, I know that this behavor, "demanding" some explanation at once can cripple some new ideas and inventions, but usually it is a good thing). Publishing results which cannot be true (graph with too high, physically impossible energies) and then correcting it.

And the phenomenon of so called "cold fusin" got explained. It wasn't fusion, it was deuterium atoms breaking bonds/crystal structure.

By the way I agree that is the bad thing that cold fusion disaster might have scared some minds from pursuing ideas in that direction.

As an excercise, try to list as many different uses for a pen that you can, uses like taking notes, drawing, outlining, and I'll bet there are some uses for a pen that little kids who has no ingrained notions of the proper uses for a pen can come up with and it wouldn't be on your list.

Thinking "outside the box" (unconventional thinking) has nothing to do with having the knowledge. It is about overcoming preconceptions. Usually more knowledge means more preconceptions, though...

I'm thinking, what if the speed of light isn't constant?  Would the knowledge that the speed of light is constant screw us up?

There are some theories, where speed of light isn't constant, or where we have two such speeds. They are usually more complicated that Special Relativity, have problems with ideas behind Special and General Relativity (independence on the observer), are falsifyable but not falsified... and usually not that much of use thanks to correspondence principle.

<hr>
That said, there are some good examples where scientist with little knowledge on subject, maybe because no knowledge gave them no preconceptions, "invalid knowledge". Though probably not the ones you think of. I.e. not Einstein. Lack of higher mathematical education hindered him heavily while he was trying to pour his General Relativity physical ideas into set of equations you can get predictions from. Some mathematician from India, forgot his name --- but even him had some elementary book of math to biuld on.

Sometimes more knowledge (epscially "bad knowledge") leads to more preconceptions, false assumptions and false no-go's. But I think building on knowledge is much more common.

Besides, it was knowledge that something is "impossible" (like V Euclid Postulate) that led to breaking the "false knowledge" (in this example to creating new geometries).

<hr>
To admins: could you please split this part of discussion into separate thread, staring with my rant two posts above? Title doesn't matter much (as I would be able to change it ), but "Ignorant inventor" might be a good start  8)

[Hearly]

Shadowhawk, I'm not sure I understand exactly what point your trying to get across...

Are you trying to get across that the faey can't think outside the box or that Jason can because he was not brought up being taught all there "normal" methods?

[Shadowhawk]

Shadowhawk, I'm not sure I understand exactly what point your trying to get across...

Are you trying to get across that the Faey can't think outside the box or that Jason can because he was not brought up being taught all there "normal" methods?

I'm trying to say (with little success I see) that "he can do it because nobody has told him it cannot be done" is myth (or topos), which is BS, especially with respect to higher physics (mathematics on the other hand...). Somewhere in the same box as the "mad scientist" (lone to boot) myth/idea.

But going back to Faey scientists, technicians and inventors... it might be that because feudal system there is much stronger notion of authority, and much less contesting authorities and "known truths" (like Reich science maybe, or communist Soviet Union, where "correctness" was more important than being correct?). See the talk of Ethan (?) Root (aka. Pontifex) in prison with Randy Waterhous in "Cryptonomicon" by Neal Stephenson (great book BTW). If Jason had good teacher in school before subjugation... or good old Earth school teacher later, who told him what science is about... I don't think that Faey would learn philosophy from conquered, non-telepathic (!) race.

[Hearly]

Ok, I don't think that is what Jason is per-say doing, what Jason IMO is doing is Thinking outside the box, Example of this would be the Railgun, no faey would have even thought of it because it's so "engrained" that Plasma weapons are so much better, etc...

I do not think Jason's done anything outside of the existing Physics what he's done is take existing Equipment/ideas and use it for purposes it was never really intended to do, or even thought about it doing..

[Shadowhawk]

I'm all for Thinking Outside The Box. But I'm quite sure that I have seen this abovementioned "he can do this because nobody has told him he cannot" dreaded phrase (maybe not in exactly this wording) somewhere in Subjugation. But I may be mistaken.

Hmm... the discussion drifted fairly far from "Subjugation in the rest of the world"  :P