How truly human is Jason by the end of 'Unification'?

[dellstart]

There are two further issues that compound this question:
1) Faey and humans can have children together, so they are essentially the SAME species, not simply closely related or visually similar. The Faey have access to telepathy (~magic) though, so the question becomes 'are witches human'? How do you define species and sub-species in that context? In scientific terms, Jason has more Faey characteristics than human ones, and therefore he's an odd looking Faey. Alternatively, if you want a Valley Of The Blind simile, then Jason simply is not blind.

2) An examination of Jason's morality cannot take place before we examine the world he lives in. Consider a King who treats his servants with kindness and respect. Is he a nice man? It's not that simple. If the entire kingdom outside his castle walls is starving and diseased then suddenly he's not as nice as his behavior would indicate. The Subjugation series is a incredibly narrow and tight focused view which makes it almost impossible to view things in the larger context.

Jason thinks he is a good man, and he is surrounded by aliens who think he is a good man. But the Faey characters have rather low standards for 'ethical' behavior. Kimdori standards seem just as bad (good = our best interests/what we want it to be) with slightly more vulnerability/emphasis to/on pear pressure. Other cross-breed humans are vanishingly rare as characters and the only pure blood human character has barely a dozen lines.

It boils down to what I call the Goldfur Problem. Bernard Doove (the character's creator) has specifically said he doesn't care about what happens to anyone other than his own characters. But that means that he must give Goldfur the same kind of attitude; because he only writes what he is interesting, and Goldfur has no independent choice. When you put that kind of character in a world where Very Bad Things happen on a regular basis off stage, and the character doesn't care, then you can get a contradiction between what the characters says and what they actually seem to do.

In the end it's down to the reader. Reading and writing is a collective illusion. Characters are not real, but we care about them because they have the illusion of life. In this story though, and stories like it, there are two separate parallel illusions. It is ultimately the readers choice which one you chose to believe in.

Anti ,before I even begin to debate you , I have to say , followed a link and was truly shocked!!! How could this be? Did my eyes deceive me? Made me want to hang my head in shame.

Mascots
Australian Rules Football team the Brisbane Bears had a koala as their mascot. Koalas are not bears. While such a mistake is forgivable for foreigners, born-and-bred Aussies should know better. o They do, but koala are still popularly known as 'koala bears'.
+ Not in Australia.... never in Australia. Period. The only thing that comes close are Drop Bears... come to think of it, maybe the mascot isn't a koala at all..


Just goes to show you , that if you don't play Rugby , like we New South Welshmen do , you have a few Roos lose in the top paddock!!!

[dellstart]

1) In the world of make believe science fiction (or is that science fantasy ), there are no givens.As long as it fits with the story flow , then there's nothing wrong with bending the truth a little bit.Nevertheless for the story to retain its integrity, the main facts have to be consistent , with well know facts.

Jason is Human.The fact a certian percentage of his DNA has Faey taint as it were ,( thus giving him certain abilities), has nothing to do with the issue.Biologically his in every way a Terran.In the same way , if you wish that the X men(In comic land) have the X- gene.It might give them different abilities from the norm even a sub species if you will.However it doesn't make them any less Human.

2)Guilty by default, would be the term your looking for.Since , you haven't heard that in such and such a situation his acted meritoriously, then by default , we have to(or could) assume his acting just the opposite. I guess , there's room to say that,on the other hand how do you know? I guess that's for Fel to clear up.


well , I guess its better its better to enjoy this 'collective illusion' , than having to unfortunately sift through the daily depressing news from the Far East and the Economy.Or in real mans terms different strokes for different folks -

Whilst its true that there is a certian set mindset ( as to be found in any military,if it aint broke dont fix it.) hence not messing with something that works.That's a reflection of the military not the general populous.

Don't forget that the general population is ex-military, as every woman has had to serve her "Enlistment" of five years. This takes place while they are still impressionable, so it fixes a certain mindset in the population.

The Noble houses havn't changed since the third civil war, a thousand years previously. That may mean that there is little social change as well. In order to preserve the status quo, and their own power, the houses might be stifling innovation. It may not be a deliberate policy, it could be that anyone who is a bit different is frowned on.

\

True.

[ANTIcarrot]

1) In the world of make believe science fiction (or is that science fantasy ), there are no givens.

I've no objection to a little rule bending, but Subjugation breaks the principles of Evolution completely. In the absence of a replacement scientific principle, prediction becomes impossible, and hence I view this as a fantasy rather than scientific universe.

Jason is Human.The fact a certian percentage of his DNA has Faey taint as it were ,( thus giving him certain abilities), has nothing to do with the issue.Biologically his in every way a Terran.In the same way , if you wish that the X men(In comic land) have the X- gene.It might give them different abilities from the norm even a sub species if you will.However it doesn't make them any less Human.

Now see, this is what happens when you throw out scientific principles. Or poorly understand them in the first place. A tiger is not a house cat. Saying that it is not a housecat does not make the tiger 'less' of a cat; quite the opposite in fact. You seem to have the disturbing notion that implying that Jason is not human is an insult. In the context of a story with multiple races that is racist. And rather dumb.

In either case by the internal standards of the story, humanity has four defining characteristics: (1) They are telepathically blind. (2) Fel apparently thinks they make terribly boring characters (no superpowers!) and so does not write about them. (3) Ethically and morally they are just as bad/untrustworthy as the Faey. (4) The entire species is suffering from an incredibly bad case of Stockholm Syndrome. Or just naturally behaves like the leadership of Vichy France.

That is how this story defines it's version of humanity. (Which is quite different to us!) By which of those characteristics is Jason 'human'? None. HE's not. He's rejected his mundanity and moved on to a high realm of existence. He's a Karinne, whose ancestry makes him genetically, technologically, and morally superior to everyone else in the universe - except for the Kimdori who have even more super powers and wonder technology than he does. This is a fantasy universe where genetics means something rather different; where race and cast matter more.

2)Guilty by default, would be the term your looking for.Since , you haven't heard that in such and such a situation his acted meritoriously, then by default , we have to(or could) assume his acting just the opposite. I guess , there's room to say that,on the other hand how do you know?

Not at all. But when a main character sees bad things happen, and does nothing about it, and feels nothing about it, and ends up having sex, and children, with the person who had ultimate responsibility, and sees no conflict in this behavior - it is a little hard to swallow when they claim to be the hero. Because they are not acting like it.

It's like a knight who rescues the princess from a dragon. He didn't lift a bloody finger to rescue the poor ugly nameless presents who were killed by the dragon before the knight turns up, but we're supposed to like him because he has a square jaw and she has round breasts? Sure there are limits to what one person can do, but after the firth or fiftieth time this happens you gotta wonder if the knight (and his friends) has some responsibility for the accumulated mountain of peasant dead. Yeah, great. Ten points for treating the symptoms. Minus ten million for failing to deal with the disease.

In Insurrection and Unification Jason is sleeping with the queen dragon and defending the dragon empire against a race of people whose great and terrible crime is... Well, acting like the people Jason has such a good time in bed with. That and having the nerve to want access to some of the technology Jason was given on a silver platter. Oh yes, and they're told a lie. Apparently. That's pretty poor evidence.

[Mad Monk]

Not at all. But when a main character sees bad things happen, and does nothing about it, and feels nothing about it, and ends up having sex, and children, with the personal who had ultimate responsibility, and sees no conflict in this behavior - it is a little hard to swallow when they claim to be the hero. Because they are not acting like it.

What exactly is a "hero"? And how does he/she act?

Ghengis Khan is regarded as a national hero in Mongolia. There are still people who look fondly on Stalin, Hitler, Mao, Richard the Lion Heart and others. Countries celebrate "Columbus day", even though descendents of native races protest against it. The founders of Israel were also Zionist terrorists, the founders of the Republic of Ireland were from the original IRA. Whether someone is a "terrorist" or "freedom fighter" changes daily - The Taliban were set up and funded by the Americans against the Soviet union.

For many people if someone is a hero or not is a matter of opinion and political ideology.

A NFL player became the first player to rush more than 2000 yards in a season. This made him a hero to some at the time. This was OJ Simpson, who is now a convicted felon.

From fiction think of King Arthur or Lancelot du Lac, or evem Tarrin!

What I mean to say is people are people first and foremost. Wether they are a Hero or Villain is often a matter of opinion and public relations. Also remember that winners often write the histories

[expedient]

Maybe the real question should be: How good is Jason? Or, how moral and just is he?


Having found that House Trillane were committing human/faey rights abuses Jason, having too little evidence to prove his charge, started randomly killing all their delivery drivers.

Imagine if a major corporation, such as Wal-Mart or Coca-Cola, were attacked in this way? Those Faey were killed for the crime of being Stick Pilots. What if it was a country? Militant Islamists claim that they are fighting western imperialism and corruption in a similar way.

Now he is trying to ‘fix’ everything. He wants the galaxy to work as he envisions it should. He is engineering the world around him. He isn’t a ‘good’ person.


I don’t think that it is a matter of liking Jason or not. I have a limited sympathy with his position at most. As Mad Monk points out the hero doesn’t need to be an example of goodness. In fact that is one of the main reasons I like Fel’s stories, it makes the characters interesting. Tarrin, Kyven and Jason come from apparently upstanding moral stock yet sometimes kill indiscriminately.

Jason can make the distinction between the actions of a noble house and the actions of the Imperium, those of an institution and of an individual. He also is able to recognize wars he can win and those that he cannot. When House Karinne is at full military strength, and not at war with an intergalactic foe, his position against Houses Trillane, Merrane and the Imperium at whole may shift significantly.

[hoppy]

Maybe the real question should be: How good is Jason? Or, how moral and just is he?


Having found that House Trillane were committing human/faey rights abuses Jason, having too little evidence to prove his charge, started randomly killing all their delivery drivers.

Imagine if a major corporation, such as Wal-Mart or Coca-Cola, were attacked in this way? Those Faey were killed for the crime of being Stick Pilots. What if it was a country? Militant Islamists claim that they are fighting western imperialism and corruption in a similar way.

Now he is trying to ‘fix’ everything. He wants the galaxy to work as he envisions it should. He is engineering the world around him. He isn’t a ‘good’ person.

His mines were not designed to kill pilots; they were made destroy the sticks engines. The stats were 5 fatalities out of 27 crashes and I don't remember what crew size was for a stick. After that well, fae knew they were working in a war zone and the general area of danger(mostly the transportation system.) As to the Islamic comparison, he comes out way ahead after all he only endangers noncombatants and terrorists tend to try to use noncombatants as hostages.

I don’t think that it is a matter of liking Jason or not. I have a limited sympathy with his position at most. As Mad Monk points out the hero doesn’t need to be an example of goodness. In fact that is one of the main reasons I like Fel’s stories, it makes the characters interesting. Tarrin, Kyven and Jason come from apparently upstanding moral stock yet sometimes kill indiscriminately.

As far as I'm concerned Jason is the most straight laced of the three. Then again the others have different factors in their make up and options.

Jason can make the distinction between the actions of a noble house and the actions of the Imperium, those of an institution and of an individual. He also is able to recognize wars he can win and those that he cannot. When House Karinne is at full military strength, and not at war with an intergalactic foe, his position against Houses Trillane, Merrane and the Imperium at whole may shift significantly.

Well, once the consortium is gone or it's threat lessened he is going to have to deal with every one wanting Karine technology, two extreme possibilities are the taking over of the Imperium or succession from it.

[dellstart]

1) In the world of make believe science fiction (or is that science fantasy ), there are no givens.

I've no objection to a little rule bending, but Subjugation breaks the principles of Evolution completely. In the absence of a replacement scientific principle, prediction becomes impossible, and hence I view this as a fantasy rather than scientific universe.

Jason is Human.The fact a certian percentage of his DNA has Faey taint as it were ,( thus giving him certain abilities), has nothing to do with the issue.Biologically his in every way a Terran.In the same way , if you wish that the X men(In comic land) have the X- gene.It might give them different abilities from the norm even a sub species if you will.However it doesn't make them any less Human.

Now see, this is what happens when you throw out scientific principles. Or poorly understand them in the first place. A tiger is not a house cat. Saying that it is not a housecat does not make the tiger 'less' of a cat; quite the opposite in fact. You seem to have the disturbing notion that implying that Jason is not human is an insult. In the context of a story with multiple races that is racist. And rather dumb.

In either case by the internal standards of the story, humanity has four defining characteristics: (1) They are telepathically blind. (2) Fel apparently thinks they make terribly boring characters (no superpowers!) and so does not write about them. (3) Ethically and morally they are just as bad/untrustworthy as the Faey. (4) The entire species is suffering from an incredibly bad case of Stockholm Syndrome. Or just naturally behaves like the leadership of Vichy France.

That is how this story defines it's version of humanity. (Which is quite different to us!) By which of those characteristics is Jason 'human'? None. HE's not. He's rejected his mundanity and moved on to a high realm of existence. He's a Karinne, whose ancestry makes him genetically, technologically, and morally superior to everyone else in the universe - except for the Kimdori who have even more super powers and wonder technology than he does. This is a fantasy universe where genetics means something rather different; where race and cast matter more.

2)Guilty by default, would be the term your looking for.Since , you haven't heard that in such and such a situation his acted meritoriously, then by default , we have to(or could) assume his acting just the opposite. I guess , there's room to say that,on the other hand how do you know?

Not at all. But when a main character sees bad things happen, and does nothing about it, and feels nothing about it, and ends up having sex, and children, with the person who had ultimate responsibility, and sees no conflict in this behavior - it is a little hard to swallow when they claim to be the hero. Because they are not acting like it.

It's like a knight who rescues the princess from a dragon. He didn't lift a bloody finger to rescue the poor ugly nameless presents who were killed by the dragon before the knight turns up, but we're supposed to like him because he has a square jaw and she has round breasts? Sure there are limits to what one person can do, but after the firth or fiftieth time this happens you gotta wonder if the knight (and his friends) has some responsibility for the accumulated mountain of peasant dead. Yeah, great. Ten points for treating the symptoms. Minus ten million for failing to deal with the disease.

In Insurrection and Unification Jason is sleeping with the queen dragon and defending the dragon empire against a race of people whose great and terrible crime is... Well, acting like the people Jason has such a good time in bed with. That and having the nerve to want access to some of the technology Jason was given on a silver platter. Oh yes, and they're told a lie. Apparently. That's pretty poor evidence.

Honestly , I would have to agree with your statement there in part one.
Part two,I am not so sure.That requires thought.

[expedient]

Maybe the real question should be: How good is Jason? Or, how moral and just is he?


Having found that House Trillane were committing human/faey rights abuses Jason, having too little evidence to prove his charge, started randomly killing all their delivery drivers.

Imagine if a major corporation, such as Wal-Mart or Coca-Cola, were attacked in this way? Those Faey were killed for the crime of being Stick Pilots. What if it was a country? Militant Islamists claim that they are fighting western imperialism and corruption in a similar way.

Now he is trying to ‘fix’ everything. He wants the galaxy to work as he envisions it should. He is engineering the world around him. He isn’t a ‘good’ person.

His mines were not designed to kill pilots; they were made destroy the sticks engines. The stats were 5 fatalities out of 27 crashes and I don't remember what crew size was for a stick. After that well, fae knew they were working in a war zone and the general area of danger(mostly the transportation system.) As to the Islamic comparison, he comes out way ahead after all he only endangers noncombatants and terrorists tend to try to use noncombatants as hostages.

Yes he has a number of very good reasons for taking action in the way he has. We as readers have the advantage of knowing why he has made those decisions and for the most part agree that something had to be done. Anyone not privy to his thought process could come to markedly different conclusions though, as I’ve tried to highlight.

Jason could take the high ground in his Legion days as he was liberating a planet of six billion or so people from injustice and criminal activity by the franchise ‘Government’.

Since he became Grand Duke he has made some good choices and some poor ones. His moral position is more ambiguous. Disappearing for five years, planning to interfere in the politics of foreign sovereign governments throughout the sector, withholding technology; these are policies that have been debated here in forums due to their moral ambiguity.

Jason is intelligent, sometimes funny, nondiscriminatory, loyal etc. He also has a number of character flaws, particularly a seeming tunnel-vision on one problem at a time. It’s probably why he is an excellent engineer but he does seem to be blinkered to other situations.

Don’t get me wrong, the frustration of his flaws combined with his sometimes brilliance makes him a more rounded interesting character. Some of the other characters’ motivations are not so clear.

His humanity is not in question as far as if he fits in with ‘normal’ human morality. The other races aren’t that far removed from human behavior either. Is human behavior more ‘right’ than the other species? It’s difficult to say even in the case of the Faey. The Imperium does not act how we as humans would ideally like them to. I don’t think that we can categorically say that humans are morally superior to faey as there is too much we don’t know about them.

Before someone screams “Trillane”: They displaced a large proportion of the population and enslaved five million over the years of their control. Well, that is wrong, bad, evil. Millions are trafficked into the West every year to take jobs that pay below a livable wage to be indentured workers as cleaners, farmers, factory workers etc. Or to other places in potentially worse circumstances that provide goods for the West. An estimated million or so of women are trafficked and forced to work for the sex industry each year. Very little money, comparatively, is spent to stop this trade. This, in my opinion, puts our Governments in a not entirely dissimilar position to the Imperium.

[boballab]

After looking through the thread I have come to the conclusion that the original question was fundamentaly flawed. Jason is no more nor less human now then when the story started. He has the same amount of Human DNA that he always had, however he now knows that he never was fully human. That Faey and Kimdori DNA he inherited is dominate DNA. IF it wasn't dominate, he wouldn't have been able to commune, have telepathy, telekinesis let alone the fact his skin turns blue in draconis's sun unlike a 100% human.

The question should have been how much of Jason's original Ideals and postions remain unchanged. Jason went from a young man just out on his own, the father he revered having died and then having the last of his known world turned upside down by the Faey. At the start of Subjugation Jason filtered everything throguh the perspective of how his father would have done things. He has went from a black and white perspective of youth to becoming a man that faces a gray universe.

As to comparing him to the other Fel Main Characters Jason's journey has been the hardest. Tarrin's path was set before him, he actually never had a choice until the end of Demon's Bane. Tarrin was born for a specific reason and his whole life path was carved out for him by Higher level beings. Kyven is in much the same boat with the Shadowfox. Jason has never had that luxury of the other two. They can point to others for the straights they are in Jason can't. Tarrin and Kyven have others they have to answer to, Jason has only his own conscious.

[sivak]

Boballab is right. The question posted was not the correct question. Whether or not Jason is as human as when the series started is answered by the DNA percentages. The question that I think was intended was "Does Jason still fit within the generally accepted designation of human?" That designation is determined by the general ideals, morality, and compassion that society as a whole says is human.

[dellstart]

ok ,errrrrr i guess that's what i meant wasn't it?