Spirit Walker - Spoilers - Chapter 15

[hoppy]

*It's possible that some or all of her mind is synthetic.

I have a feeling The Shadow Fox made the shadow fox's pretty intelligent in the first place. So she had to do was give the fox an education.

Darwin still applies in this world. Shadow foxes presumably look like Shadow Fox. So no hands. Their abilities would make hunting easier than for regular foxes. So they'd fall foul of the principle that the easier food is to find the dumber the eater is. Unless something is actively stopping them from being stupid, there's no reason to assume they'd have more intelligence then normal critters; quite the opposite in fact.

Regular animals (including many that humans eat, wear, and experiment on) are smarter than most people are willing to give them credit for. But no one has ever recorded an animal that can use and/or understand words like 'and' or 'but'. Umbra can. Even if she was fox-smart, or even chimp-smart, giving her that ability is not just education, it's cutting her brain open and adding new hardware.

Here is what I think she gave the shadow foxes.
1. spirit sight
2. spirit speech(or whatever she uses to talk to kyven)
3. The intellegence to understand and socialize.
The Shadow Fox's primary attribute is guile. She is not going to have children that are not smart enough to appreciate tricking some one if she can help it. There are other reasons I am not going go into. Think about what you know about the shadow foxes. If not, I will spell it out later. I do not have the time now.

[Omegano]

Let's look at it this way. We have three states of life. Human, which we'll call State A. Arcan, we'll call State B. Monster/Animal, we'll call State C.

Arcans are human/animal hybrids basically, right? Or in Kyven's case, Human/Monster hybrid. So let's say that State B is a midpoint state between A and C.

Kyven was changed from State A to State B. The Shadowfox Spirit took something from Kyven to make him an arcan. His humanity.

Umbra when the other way. She went from State C to State B. She was already a monster, so it's not the monster side of the equation that was required, but the human side. Which the shadowfox spirit has exactly one of. Kyven's humanity.

The Shadowfox spirit gave the shadowfox monster humanity, but not enough to become human. Only the Human/Monster hybrid that is the Arcan.

The spirit gave Umbra Kyven's humanity. Which is why the spirit in an earlier chapter said it wouldn't be possible to switch between human and Arcan without help. Because at that point, the spirit has already given away Kyven's actual humanity. Kyven would have to have someone else become a Shadowfox Arcan before he could become human again.

If this is, in fact, what has happened, then the implications of it go far beyond Kyven. It would give the Loremaster's "proof" that Arcans are less than humans. In some sense, it would be true. The Arcans would have less of something than Humans have. What most humans wouldn't see is that they have other things to make up for it. But this would, in some way, justify some of the Loremaster's actions. Not many, but enough to further solidify the basis of the slavery of the Arcans. The implications would also cause quite a few Arcans to question quite a few things about themselves. Very little good could come out of this.

About the intelligence of the Shadow Fox monsters, I think they are somewhere in between Animal, and Human/Arcan intelligence. They are obviously smart enough to communicate, and to understand what the Shadow Fox was telling them. Also smart enough to have vanity, and to understand what vanity is and that they have it. As for the thing about Darwin still applying here, you have to remember there are extra forces in play here that Darwin doesn't take into account. Namely, the Shadow Fox herself, Spirit Energy, their status as monsters (and that they can be considered magical creatures), etc. The rules are probably slightly different. Not a lot, but enough.

But that's just my 2 cents...

Omegano

[furry_wolf2001b]

My thake on the whole thing is.
One we can not forget umbra herself, she is now in a position to experiment and find out about and develop the more advanced shadow fox -Arcan- power.
She will no doubt know more then kyven about the basic shadow stuff, but there are no reason why she could not start to experiment on her own now and then help kyven, or rather both together trying to figure out how shadow Arcan stuff works..

Maybe power? After all, changing a creature into an Arcan must involve an enormous amount of energy... No, that's not right. When the spirit realized he wasn't compatible with other foxes, she immediately went to a den or whatever of Shadowfoxes to get a female for him. There was no hording of power either, as we see that Kyven continues to train his magic the whole time.

I don't agree at all.
Who says spirits have unlimited power or that they don't get tired and need to recuperate from a hard task such as changing something so drastically.

If umbra was a shadowfox and not an Arcan she would most likely have been smaller then usual Arcans too, so she would have to gain mass too, -if- she was smaller that is.
I take it that it may be that spirit shadowfox had power enuf at that time only to transform one creature.
And who knows, she may be careful now about making mistakes, she may not be 100% sure it will work, and in so umbra is/may be, a test case.

As for later, once done and seen it work, she can make more, nothing is stopping her i think, besides power.
Unless the spirits have rules about that, witch sound not that far out really.
And another thing, kyven and perhaps umbra may not be able to interbreed with other fox Arcans, but we have no idea if that goes for their offspring.
But one thing that may nix that, as their power is so connected to their fur, any impurities -may- perhaps make them normal Arcans with no shadow power, and that may be a reason why they can not interbreed.
Or the simple reason that they may look enuf alike, but be so far from normal fox genetics.
But then again, lion and tigers can interbreed for some strange reason... :-/
As can some other species to create sterile offspring.
But we have no idea how it all works with Arcans, there perhaps will be questions like these witch will never be answered in the story, simply because they don't really fit in there.
Bleh I am rambling again, sorry.

[ANTIcarrot]

Here is what I think she gave the shadow foxes.
1. spirit sight

Along with shadow walking et all; given. Spirit speech... We don't know how that works. It could be spirits can talk to animals and people any time they want, but don't. It could also be she didn't give them spirit speech, but rather left herself a back-door into their minds; so that only she could talk to them. More on this later.

3. The intellegence to understand [What? Each other? The world around them?] and socialize.

Yes. Well done. That would make them DOG smart. As I said, normal foxes (which can also do this) are smarter than people like you give them credit for. If the message was dumbed down for their level, via telepathy, a fox could understand this message and find it appealing. A hansom mate to produce lots of kits is something a vixen would look for anyway.

The Shadow Fox's primary attribute is guile. She is not going to have children that are not smart enough to appreciate tricking some one if she can help it.

This must be a tricky concept for you to understand, since you missed it the first two times, but Shadow Fox doesn't always get her own way. For whatever reason she ****ed up Kyven's transformation slightly. And again, for whatever reason she could only produce one Umbra. She might want her pets to be intelligent, but she doesn't get her own way all the time.

And for another time, Shadow Fox is not a fox, she is something very old, very powerful, very alien, and rather amoral, that likes to pretend to be a fox. Why? Foxes aren't smart or guileful, they just have a reputation for being these things. A reputation amongst humans who, until recently, were unable to watch how foxes really did things because we couldn't see in the dark. If she wants the shadow foxes to reflect herself, they don't need sapience, just more of the physical grace, sensory perception, and mental persistence which they already have in abundance. Apart from a few extra tricks added to their swiss army knife of other abilities, nothing in the story speaks of or implies anything else.

There are other reasons I am not going go into. Think about what you know about the shadow foxes. If not, I will spell it out later. I do not have the time now.

It is enough to say that a garden is beautiful. You don't have to insist there are fairies hiding behind the flowers as well.

[ANTIcarrot]

I don't agree at all.
Who says spirits have unlimited power or that they don't get tired and need to recuperate from a hard task such as changing something so drastically.<snip> Unless the spirits have rules about that, witch sound not that far out really.

It's certainly a common theme of Fel's works that the more powerful being would like to help more, but can't for various reasons. It could be that she's in enough trouble already, and if she tried to create more than one Umbra more, the other spirits would completely flatten her.

If I was a suspicious paranoid bastard, and I am, I might suspect the other spirits have good reasons.

Shadow Fox can talk to at least some of the shadow foxes. It's probably she can still talk to Umbra. The shaman thing is inheritable. A spirit can supply enough power to kill a shaman. I find myself wondering how much power they can supply at once? If it's near unlimited then this looks like she's building up her own personal army. If they all have shadow fox powers then shaman magic might be irrelevant to them, and if they are all linked directly to the Shadow Fox, and she can punish them without retaliation, and this is starting to look very familiar. Will they all start to wear star shaped symbols too?

My first reaction to Umbra was, "Oh bloody hell... Does that stupid little pile of fluff and arrogance have the slightest idea what she's just done?" The creation of Umbra appears foolish and dangerous on oh so many levels. Playing around with life is unpredictable. Playing around with intelligence is insanely unpredictable. Now I'm more worried that she does know, and is willing to take the risk. Or rather willing for others to take the risk.

And in any case, turning an animal into a person just so they can be a baby factory... Not nice, ya know?

But we have no idea how it all works with Arcans, there perhaps will be questions like these witch will never be answered in the story, simply because they don't really fit in there.

Which is the eternal question. What will Fel tell us before the credits roll?

[Fel]

I don't agree at all.
Who says spirits have unlimited power or that they don't get tired and need to recuperate from a hard task such as changing something so drastically.<snip> Unless the spirits have rules about that, witch sound not that far out really.

It's certainly a common theme of Fel's works that the more powerful being would like to help more, but can't for various reasons. It could be that she's in enough trouble already, and if she tried to create more than one Umbra more, the other spirits would completely flatten her.

If I was a suspicious paranoid bastard, and I am, I might suspect the other spirits have good reasons.

Shadow Fox can talk to at least some of the shadow foxes. It's probably she can still talk to Umbra. The shaman thing is inheritable. A spirit can supply enough power to kill a shaman. I find myself wondering how much power they can supply at once? If it's near unlimited then this looks like she's building up her own personal army. If they all have shadow fox powers then shaman magic might be irrelevant to them, and if they are all linked directly to the Shadow Fox, and she can punish them without retaliation, and this is starting to look very familiar. Will they all start to wear star shaped symbols too?

My first reaction to Umbra was, "Oh bloody hell... Does that stupid little pile of fluff and arrogance have the slightest idea what she's just done?" The creation of Umbra appears foolish and dangerous on oh so many levels. Playing around with life is unpredictable. Playing around with intelligence is insanely unpredictable. Now I'm more worried that she does know, and is willing to take the risk. Or rather willing for others to take the risk.

And in any case, turning an animal into a person just so they can be a baby factory... Not nice, ya know?

But we have no idea how it all works with Arcans, there perhaps will be questions like these witch will never be answered in the story, simply because they don't really fit in there.

Which is the eternal question. What will Fel tell us before the credits roll?

Well, I've stated before, the Shadow Fox is not nice. That should have been abundantly clear by now.

But part in parcel with her not being nice is that she's also not very worried about how others feel. She trampled all over Kyven, and that was not just a special case. She'll trample over anyone who has something she wants or whom she wants to do something for her. The only real soft spot she has is for her own children, which is why she ASKED Umbra where she has FORCED Kyven.

So yah, it's confirmed, though I made it fairly obvious. Umbra was created from a shadow fox, created from the other side of the hybrid state. Kyven was created from a human, Umbra was created from a monster, and both of them meet in the middle.

And yes, they're both Arcan, just as Arcan as any other Arcan. Their transormations were utter and complete. Chew on that for a while.

But, some of the issues you bring up here do, in fact, appear later in the story. The Shadow Fox is acting on her own, and she's taking very, VERY drastic steps. Steps that are highly frowned upon by the other spirits, but they can't tell her what to do. It doesn't work that way. Each spirit is its own "person," and they have no real "government" per se. They can frown on her actions, but unless they fight her, they can't really make her stop.

And some of them, secretly, understand that the Shadow Fox is simply taking steps to be ready for the worst-case scenario. They can hate what she's doing, but they can respect the fact that she has the guts to do it where others do not.

What it took to create Umbra will be revealed in the next chapter, which will also explain why there's only one of her.

And it might explain a few other things.

[GBLW]

And it might explain a few other things.

Like a certain 'lady of the night' and perhaps a different female's fit of jealousy?
(I may be going off on a tangent , since it seems far too early in the plot to be contemplating genetics, but if two disparate gamete sources are good, three would be better and she has only one available sperm donor. On top of that there is also the requirement of future viability, as well as adaptability [or perhaps transformation would be a better description.].)

My thoughts are that the shadow fox (the spirit version) is looking at the long term demands on any or all future shadow fox shaman.

[hoppy]

*snip*

Well, I've stated before, the Shadow Fox is not nice. That should have been abundantly clear by now.

But part in parcel with her not being nice is that she's also not very worried about how others feel. She trampled all over Kyven, and that was not just a special case. She'll trample over anyone who has something she wants or whom she wants to do something for her. The only real soft spot she has is for her own children, which is why she ASKED Umbra where she has FORCED Kyven.
*snip*

I got the the feeling she was more ruthless than uncaring. Kyven's transformation seemed like "tough love" to me. It just hurt more because she was teaching three lessons at once. If she had not had to teach him not to trust the spirits in an agreement the lesson probably would have been less painful.

[Fel]

*snip*

Well, I've stated before, the Shadow Fox is not nice. That should have been abundantly clear by now.

But part in parcel with her not being nice is that she's also not very worried about how others feel. She trampled all over Kyven, and that was not just a special case. She'll trample over anyone who has something she wants or whom she wants to do something for her. The only real soft spot she has is for her own children, which is why she ASKED Umbra where she has FORCED Kyven.
*snip*

I got the the feeling she was more ruthless than uncaring. Kyven's transformation seemed like "tough love" to me. It just hurt more because she was teaching three lessons at once. If she had not had to teach him not to trust the spirits in an agreement the lesson probably would have been less painful.

It's both, really.

There is care in her, but it's buried deep inside her. She's ruthless, yes, and she can be quite savage and cruel, but it's in the nature of the animal of which she is part. The animal has no feeling for that which does not concern it directly.

And though she's a spirit, she's STILL a shadow fox. The monsters she created are just an image of her. She has all the instincts of a predator, and predators aren't very sentimental. The Shadow Fox is, at her core, a being of eminent practicality, unhindered by feelings or emotion.

There's no bonds between her and Kyven. He is a totem Shaman, a servant, and due to her deception, she owns him utterly. The bargain they struck went FAR beyond just giving her the power to turn him into an Arcan. That is how she sees him, as a possession. A prized possession to be sure, but still a possession. He is as much a slave to her as the captive Arcans are to the humans.

In her own way, the Shadow Fox is not much better than Annette Ledwell.

But she's also a very complex personality. There's much more to her than you see, a myriad of subtle emotions and hidden intentions, all of which are centered around the jewel in her crown...her human Shaman. She's been pretty awful to him, but as you may have noticed from the tone of her conversations, her attitude towards him is slowly beginning to change. She's not as snippy with him now, more willing to answer his questions, has even admitted her fallibility, something a master almost never does with a slave. Her relationship to him is shifting, and that relationship is a key point of plot development later, when Kyven has to reconcile his hatred of her with her newfound concern for him.

[hoppy]

This must be a tricky concept for you to understand, since you missed it the first two times, but Shadow Fox doesn't always get her own way. For whatever reason she ****ed up Kyven's transformation slightly. And again, for whatever reason she could only produce one Umbra. She might want her pets to be intelligent, but she doesn't get her own way all the time.

She didn't **** up Kyven's transformation. She got exactly what she wanted. She did not realize that what she wanted could not reproduce with other fox arcans, that was her mistake. So why could she not get what she wanted out of her children?

[boballab]

But she's also a very complex personality. There's much more to her than you see, a myriad of subtle emotions and hidden intentions, all of which are centered around the jewel in her crown...her human Shaman. She's been pretty awful to him, but as you may have noticed from the tone of her conversations, her attitude towards him is slowly beginning to change. She's not as snippy with him now, more willing to answer his questions, has even admitted her fallibility, something a master almost never does with a slave. Her relationship to him is shifting, and that relationship is a key point of plot development later, when Kyven has to reconcile his hatred of her with her newfound concern for him.

I think I know where you are going with that Fel and it is something that you showed way back in chapter 13. When Kyven asked about Silver and possible offspring being killed for fur the Shadowfox almost reacted violently. She is starting to see Kyven in his Arcan form as one of her children like the Monsters. She made him, just like the monsters, in her image and he is starting to see things just like she does.

[dellstart]

But she's also a very complex personality. There's much more to her than you see, a myriad of subtle emotions and hidden intentions, all of which are centered around the jewel in her crown...her human Shaman. She's been pretty awful to him, but as you may have noticed from the tone of her conversations, her attitude towards him is slowly beginning to change. She's not as snippy with him now, more willing to answer his questions, has even admitted her fallibility, something a master almost never does with a slave. Her relationship to him is shifting, and that relationship is a key point of plot development later, when Kyven has to reconcile his hatred of her with her newfound concern for him.

I think I know where you are going with that Fel and it is something that you showed way back in chapter 13. When Kyven asked about Silver and possible offspring being killed for fur the Shadowfox almost reacted violently. She is starting to see Kyven in his Arcan form as one of her children like the Monsters. She made him, just like the monsters, in her image and he is starting to see things just like she does.

bAng on the money!

I think its what we would call it in another series , Pack mentality.Or at least the beginning vestiges of it.That is a thing a fox would understand very well.At the same time,Kyv is starting to slowly adjust to the whole Alpha - male mentality.Not that he has much of a choice.

[darkhand]

I think its what we would call it in another series , Pack mentality.Or at least the beginning vestiges of it.That is a thing a fox would understand very well.At the same time,Kyv is starting to slowly adjust to the whole Alpha - male mentality.Not that he has much of a choice.

of course we have seen that alpha male mentality in another set of books by fel no have we not? my god, he is mixing his two universes together, the world will end, the world will end . Of course seeing a tarren like character with the wits of jason, now that will give you nightmares . now lets give fel the prize, a one year subscription to the yays, nos, boos, pleads and complaits form the forum.

[schunn99]

of course we have seen that alpha male mentality in another set of books by fel no have we not? my god, he is mixing his two universes together, the world will end, the world will end . Of course seeing a tarren like character with the wits of jason, now that will give you nightmares . now lets give fel the prize, a one year subscription to the yays, nos, boos, pleads and complaits form the forum.

that is a scary thought. But it would make for a very interesting character and make very good reading.

[boballab]

I think we need to keep a few things in mind before we run off into the wild speculation.

1. Kyven is nowhere near as powerful as Tarrin, hell Tarrin would whip the Shadowfox's ass. We must keep in mind that even tho the Spirits have power they are nowhere in the league of the Gods of Sennadar. Think more along the lines of the Were-kin of Sennadar, long lived beings that have great power but are not immortal and definitely not infallible. This story was first suppose to be in the Sennadar Universe but Fel pulled it from there because the Magic in Sennadar was too powerful for this story.

2. Foxes don't live in packs like wolves. The usual Fox grouping is 1 Breeding Male and one or two females and their young in a particular range. Usually only 1 of those females is bred the other just helps with the kits, but it is also known for the male to stray out of the group. So if there would be any animal influence on Kyven it would be along those lines.

In a way the Shadowfox spirit has given birth to the Shadowfox Arcan Breed by changing Kyven and now Umbra. The Shadowfox is a being of energy but she identifies with certain aspects and one of those aspects is female. So just like most females of any given species they care about their young and in Arcan terms Kyven is young, almost a child. Put those factors together and you can see maternal feelings coming out in the Shadowfox for Kyven. She also doesn't want to see her breed, her children die out. Just wondering how Fel is going to handle getting around the whole Inbreeding aspect with so far having only one breeding pair, I have an idea but not sure if its right since there is still only the one male in the equation.