Spirit Walker - Spoilers - Chapters 1 through part of 14

[boballab]

Ok that might knock the shadowfox out as Toby, he could be another Spirit all together. My main Hypothesis still stand that toby is a Spirit. When you take the pieces individually they don't look like much but when you take all the little things together they look much different. It's like looking at a single tree, now that one tree doesn't make a forest, but when you get a thousand trees all clumped together well thats a different story. The biggest problem I have with the whole he is just a well trained Human that is trying to get Kyven back, is that he wouldn't let Clover live if that was the case. Letting Clover live would be stupid in the extreme and Toby is anything but Stupid. Go back to the Deep Water fight, what would happen if Toby did capture Kyven and head back? He knows Clover is protecting Kyven, he knows she is a Shaman, and she would want to get him back. That is just too dangerous an opponent to let chase after you, nope the safest thing to do would be to kill her when he had the chance. Also how does a Human cancel a shaman spell, not ground like the lightning, but stop a spell before it is even cast? Remember we know how the spells are cast.

. “It is easy, human. You ask for it. The spirits will hear your call and respond. They supply the magic. Your mind and will shapes it into the spell, gives the energy purpose and function.”

So again how does a simple Human either stop the flow of energy from the spirit to the shaman or messes up Clovers mind/will from shaping the spell. To cancel the spell he had to do one of those two things. Shaman spells are simple things with very few restrictions. The Shaman most be able to see the target, the Shaman must know how to shape the Spell, they ask the spirits for the energy, the spirit grants that energy, the Shaman channels that energy into the shape they need and casts it out to what they see. So to me the only beings that could cancel a spell would be the Shaman themself or a spirit to disrupt the energy flow.

[hoppy]

Ok that might knock the shadowfox out as Toby, he could be another Spirit all together. My main Hypothesis still stand that toby is a Spirit. When you take the pieces individually they don't look like much but when you take all the little things together they look much different. It's like looking at a single tree, now that one tree doesn't make a forest, but when you get a thousand trees all clumped together well thats a different story. The biggest problem I have with the whole he is just a well trained Human that is trying to get Kyven back, is that he wouldn't let Clover live if that was the case. Letting Clover live would be stupid in the extreme and Toby is anything but Stupid. Go back to the Deep Water fight, what would happen if Toby did capture Kyven and head back? He knows Clover is protecting Kyven, he knows she is a Shaman, and she would want to get him back. That is just too dangerous an opponent to let chase after you, nope the safest thing to do would be to kill her when he had the chance. Also how does a Human cancel a shaman spell, not ground like the lightning, but stop a spell before it is even cast? Remember we know how the spells are cast.

. “It is easy, human. You ask for it. The spirits will hear your call and respond. They supply the magic. Your mind and will shapes it into the spell, gives the energy purpose and function.”

So again how does a simple Human either stop the flow of energy from the spirit to the shaman or messes up Clovers mind/will from shaping the spell. To cancel the spell he had to do one of those two things. Shaman spells are simple things with very few restrictions. The Shaman most be able to see the target, the Shaman must know how to shape the Spell, they ask the spirits for the energy, the spirit grants that energy, the Shaman channels that energy into the shape they need and casts it out to what they see. So to me the only beings that could cancel a spell would be the Shaman themself or a spirit to disrupt the energy flow.

As far he was concerned Clover was pretty much out the fight after he shot her, remember shaman powers are not well known, Loremaster ideas handicap them that way, if arcans are no better than animals then you just kill the bad ones after all what could an arcan/animal say that could interest the superior human. Also remember he wanted to lure Kyven out with Clover. Also what happens when shaman hear about him killing her and come after him. Her getting healed if possible would at least slow pursuit, but if she is dead then someone might feel the need to avenge her.

[GBLW]

Ok that might knock the shadowfox out as Toby, he could be another Spirit all together.

I can't see that myself, but for a totally different reason than others have mentioned. It's far too simple and Fel loves complexities.

[boballab]

As far he was concerned Clover was pretty much out the fight after he shot her, remember shaman powers are not well known, Loremaster ideas handicap them that way, if arcans are no better than animals then you just kill the bad ones after all what could an arcan/animal say that could interest the superior human. Also remember he wanted to lure Kyven out with Clover. Also what happens when shaman hear about him killing her and come after him. Her getting healed if possible would at least slow pursuit, but if she is dead then someone might feel the need to avenge her.

Ah but your own reasoning defeats your stated purpose in this case. First ignore the fact the spirits want Toby alive, because if Toby is human he doesn't know it, just go with what he will know at that point. You reason that killing Clover would cause the Shaman to come after him, but you over look the fact that She will come after him for shooting her and for taking Kyven. She is also still alive to let the other shaman know what he did. Also you forget the fact they are no longer in an area that is controlled by the Loremasters. There is Alchemical devices that heal, so even if Toby doesn't know she can heal herself he can't count on that wound to give him enough lead time, because he has to take into account that Clover has, or maybe able to get, a healing bell. Remember also he can't go at full speed because Kyven is slower then him, also he would have to watch him like a hawk further slowing him down. So he has to figure Clover will be on his trail within a day, a being that will be able to travel at top speed while he has to get a hostile prisoner that will slow him down away. As the military says leaving a powerful enemy close to your rear is a bad tactical decision. The safest option for Toby at that point is still to kill Clover. It would take more time for the word to get to the other shaman if Clover dies then if she lives. IF Toby is a highly trained human he would kill her because that is what his training tells him is the safest option. Also remember Toby is not infected with that Arcan's are nothing but animal crap. Also his plan to use Clover to lure Kyven out was before he knew she was Shaman. Bottom line his choices in that situation are bad and worse, once he went up against one Shaman and took what the shaman was guarding he would become a target for them all. Bad Choice: Killing Clover and taking Kyven and chased by other shaman when they find out. Worse Choice: Letting Clover live and take Kyven and have her hot on his heals and calling in the other shaman. Either way the Shaman are going to be after him.

Still no one has come up for a way for Toby to Cancel a Shaman Spell.

[furry_wolf2001b]

Ok the first fight I think you overlooked something Clover said to Kyven about it:

He was actually polite about it, but I was quite surprised when he cancelled my spell, grounded my lightning, and retaliated with his pistol

If it was just Grounding the Lightning like clover said I would agree with you. Alchemical devices probably could do that, but he cancelled a spell. That means he interrupted the channel of energy between the Spirit and the Shaman. If Alchemical devices could do that every Loreguard would be running around with them and the Shaman wouldn't be that big of a threat. Remember theShaman only channel spirit energy, I can only think a spirit could do that.

Now onto that the spirits won't lie: Lying is part of deception and the Shadowfox would lie her ass off to Kyven if it suited her purposes.

lied, ly·ing.
–noun 1. a false statement made with deliberate intent to deceive; an intentional untruth; a falsehood.
2. something intended or serving to convey a false impression; imposture: His flashy car was a lie that deceived no one.
3. an inaccurate or false statement.
4. the charge or accusation of lying: He flung the lie back at his accusers.
–verb (used without object) 5. to speak falsely or utter untruth knowingly, as with intent to deceive.

ly·ing·ly, adverb
—Synonyms 1. falsehood, falsity, mendacity, prevarication.
2. deceptive, misleading, fallacious; sham, counterfeit.

After all, she was a spirit of guile and deceit, and her Shaman was not exempted from her nature. If her Shaman could not appreciate that fact, he would be in for a rude awakening. She would deceive him when it suited her purposes.

He is actually ahead of you, she answered with a toothy little smile.

that little smile is to me a clue that she is pulling something on Kyven.

Then there is still the little problem that Clover has to get close to Toby to drain the crystals he has. So explain how Toby that had a head start on Clover could get caught by someone out on a grassy plain that is slower then he is. Then he doesn't try and use a weapon to defend himself when she gets near him? That little sequence just doesn't make sense. You got a "Human" that can interrupt Shaman's spells, can run faster then an Arcan, is a deadly quick draw, has killed before to keep Kyven but doesn't draw a weapon, stop a shaman spell or run fast enough to get away from Clover and lets her get close enough to drain his crystals. To me that doesn't add up, its 2+2=5

May be it was a miss type, this may be what she actually said:

He was actually polite about it, but I was quite surprised when he cancelled my spell, by grounding my lightning, and retaliated with his pistol

[furry_wolf2001b]

Still no one has come up for a way for Toby to Cancel a Shaman Spell.

It could have been something made to cancel some kind of alchemy spell, that also works on the shaman variant of the magic.

[boballab]

the only problem is that the apostraphes are used to donote a list here let me show you:

The original sentence:
“He was actually polite about it, but I was quite surprised when he cancelled my spell, grounded my lightning, and retaliated with his pistol.

the list is three items long
Item 1: cancelled my spell
item 2: grounded my lightning
item 3: and retaliated with his pistol

Now for your assumption to be right it would take more then just adding by and changing grounded to grounding to the sentence because there would only be two items and the first apostraphe is not needed. Heck you could get rid of all the apostraphes. The sentence would have to go like this:

“He was actually polite about it, but I was quite surprised when he cancelled my spell by grounding my lightning and retaliated with his pistol.

That makes me leery that it was just a simple grammatical mistake. If it was originally written like this i would be more in favor of your assumption:

“He was actually polite about it, but I was quite surprised when he cancelled my spell grounded my lightning, and retaliated with his pistol.

That sentence makes no grammatical sense but it makes sense if you look at it as just missing by and used grounded and not grounding.

It could have been something made to cancel some kind of alchemy spell, that also works on the shaman variant of the magic.

While Alchemical devices and Shamans have the same effect the mechanism of how they work is far different. in the device the energy comes from a crystal and the energy is based on the color of the crystal and performs the action based on the device. So to Cancel an Alchemical spell it would have to disrupt the crystal's energy or the shape of the device. In the Shaman Spell the Energy is supplied by the Spirits straight to the Shaman and the Shaman acts as the device. So your postulating that some dinky little device is disrupting either the Spirits or the Shamans body?
If that was the case then every Loreguard would be running around with one and the Shaman would pose no threat to them.

[furry_wolf2001b]

Err. the magic is the same, just different source(stored in crystal or in shaman body) and method (mind or device).
And having something defend against something do not make it all inclusive.
For example, he could have had something to negate fire attacks, witch interrupted the spell as it don't trigger or be able to work.
After all, the shaman sets up the scenario for the spell, and if the shaman is wrong (because of something) he/she don't know it wont work beforehand.

[ANTIcarrot]

Ok that might knock the shadowfox out as Toby, he could be another Spirit all together. My main Hypothesis still stand that toby is a Spirit.

But your sole reason for thinking this seems to be your assumption that humans are stupid and incapable - or at least significantly more so than arcans or spirits. To rephrase this view it in a particularly sarcastic way: "No black man could do such things! He must be a white man in disguise!" Or in a childish sense: "The popular kids can't do maths inside their heads. So everyone else must be even more stupid than that!"

Fel has told us that shamans can use the spirits for most of the things humans need crystals for; and some other things besides. This also means that if they are clever, the humans can also work out how to duplicate the shamans tricks. By necessity they'll also develop tricks and crystals for things arcans have no use for. I doubt shamans build anti-shaman weapons, or magic horse shoes for example.

The contrast could be viewed as pneumatics vs hydraulics, or as a paper library open to anyone, and a internet that only a few dozen people in the world can access. In many ways the internet is easier to use. But the shear number of people using a paper library can make it as powerful in many ways (though slower) because of the greater 'wishlist' of wanted inventions, and the greater possibilities for accidental discoveries.

If [such devices existed] then every Loreguard would be running around with one and the Shaman would pose no threat to them.

Not if they are expensive, or only work once, or need to be charged first, or any other number of limitations. If these do exist, all they need to do is to ground the magic. If it drains out of a shaman faster than a spirit can safely pump it in, then the shaman can't do spells.

is that he wouldn't let Clover live if that was the case. Letting Clover live would be stupid in the extreme and Toby is anything but Stupid.

Shamans are a wild card from the human point of view. They only know theory and rumor. Toby has apparently figured out that arcans aren't animals, and that shamans aren't evil or invincible. He probably thought that shooting her in the leg would put her out of the action for long enough for him to get away. (An inch or two left or right, and he would have been correct. She would have lost consciousness in seconds due to blood loss, and if Toby only healed the blood loss, she'd stay passed out until she woke up naturally.) He might have assumed that if she didn't heal the wound in seconds, that it would take her hours. Maybe this is how human crystals work. This seems to be a case of Clover getting lucky, and Toby being a little naive.

Also how does a Human cancel a shaman spell, not ground like the lightning, but stop a spell before it is even cast?

Well, one way is to start with an author using a careless phrase, then have a load of hyperactive forumites twist it to mean things the author never intended...

Kyven heard two thunderclaps then a gun shot. We have no evidence that any other spell was cast other than lightening.

I think the only things we were supposed to learn here is that shamans can make mistakes, and that while powerful, they don't have some magic 'bang you're dead button' when dealing with humans; that if they charge in without thinking they can lose, or get killed. Which would very nicely foreshadow Kyven's ambush with Danna's men.

[furry_wolf2001b]

Sumimasen *bows*

[hoppy]

As far he was concerned Clover was pretty much out the fight after he shot her, remember shaman powers are not well known, Loremaster ideas handicap them that way, if arcans are no better than animals then you just kill the bad ones after all what could an arcan/animal say that could interest the superior human. Also remember he wanted to lure Kyven out with Clover. Also what happens when shaman hear about him killing her and come after him. Her getting healed if possible would at least slow pursuit, but if she is dead then someone might feel the need to avenge her.

Ah but your own reasoning defeats your stated purpose in this case. First ignore the fact the spirits want Toby alive, because if Toby is human he doesn't know it, just go with what he will know at that point. You reason that killing Clover would cause the Shaman to come after him, but you over look the fact that She will come after him for shooting her and for taking Kyven. She is also still alive to let the other shaman know what he did. Also you forget the fact they are no longer in an area that is controlled by the Loremasters. There is Alchemical devices that heal, so even if Toby doesn't know she can heal herself he can't count on that wound to give him enough lead time, because he has to take into account that Clover has, or maybe able to get, a healing bell. Remember also he can't go at full speed because Kyven is slower then him, also he would have to watch him like a hawk further slowing him down. So he has to figure Clover will be on his trail within a day, a being that will be able to travel at top speed while he has to get a hostile prisoner that will slow him down away. As the military says leaving a powerful enemy close to your rear is a bad tactical decision. The safest option for Toby at that point is still to kill Clover. It would take more time for the word to get to the other shaman if Clover dies then if she lives. IF Toby is a highly trained human he would kill her because that is what his training tells him is the safest option. Also remember Toby is not infected with that Arcan's are nothing but animal crap. Also his plan to use Clover to lure Kyven out was before he knew she was Shaman. Bottom line his choices in that situation are bad and worse, once he went up against one Shaman and took what the shaman was guarding he would become a target for them all. Bad Choice: Killing Clover and taking Kyven and chased by other shaman when they find out. Worse Choice: Letting Clover live and take Kyven and have her hot on his heals and calling in the other shaman. Either way the Shaman are going to be after him.

Still no one has come up for a way for Toby to Cancel a Shaman Spell.

OK maybe I did not make what I was saying clear. Toby has at least five reasons not to kill her.
1. He tried to lure him out with her. Kyven is more likely to come after or trade himself for a live shaman than a corpse.
2. There is a possibility of more free arcans being around, and he would rather have them helping her than coming after him. The way I see him thinking is he is after one. He is in the boonies. Another one shows up and shaman at that. How many more of them are there around?
3. She is a arcan and cannot go just any were for healing. This would give at least a couple hours,if not days delay.
4. morally she is defending some one(remember the stubborn sense of honor.)
5. What happens later if the shaman find out he killed one of them. He really does not want to be looking over his shoulder, wondering just how much of the stories about shaman's powers are true.
Now here my impression of the event:
Clover casts lighting spell, He is still up and coming. She casts it again, she realizes he must some type of protection against her spell, he shoots her. He talks to her while waiting to see if Kyven or some one comes after her. Then Toby goes after Kyven. Clover heals her self. She then catches up because she knows were she is going.
As to canceling spells? not sure what you mean. I assume you mean when she casts lightening At him. As I said before he just needs something to protect against electricity.

[furry_wolf2001b]

I think tonby would get protection from the most used weapons, if he can.
Considering he seems to spend ALLOT on gear, cost would not be an issue if it will save his life some day.
Now what he got and how good it was i have no idea, but he was rather immune to lightning weapons.
I have no idea if something really could be done to protect against any other weapon. but alchemy seems pretty good if you just can figure out how to do something.

[dellstart]

Ah Gloomy days ahead for mankind ,archankind and just about everyone else as well.

[furry_wolf2001b]

Yeah.
About future endeavors.
I was wondering if they could cut communication between sites.
I mean the crystal com network or whatever it is.
I don't remember if they had limited range, or if they all have contact with everyone else.

If they could cut that then they had some more time, however they do it by making it look like an accident or what, might get them even more time.
Not a whole lot, as there are a few flyer's, and as we have seen magic horse shoes, and boots.
Then again, if the com net is too big the effort would be too much, unless they can finess it some how by magic or sneakiness.

If they are dependent of com towers or repeaters, things seems way easier to cut/disable/hinder.

The big towns or city's seems to be the major problem tho in whatever they are going to come up with.

Hmm, if the lore people can just stop the breeding houses things would look up a bit, and would slow things down, just a stop gap tho.

The masked could perhaps get the kennels and such places with paying with shaman crystals before D day.
That would serve as both getting some of the arcans easy, and if they do it a bit before D day a place for getting "troops/agents" for getting more.
One trouble with that would naturally be to get enuf masked as personnel in it, as i doubt just owning the place will be enuf.

We did see a way to get more arcans to the kennels...
(hope i am not ruining things for fel now) >_<

Heh. thats one way to stop arcans being moved around.. >_>

Wonder if kyven will get a power/spell i am thinking on.. :-/

[GBLW]

I think it's rather interesting that the shadowfox wants Kyvin to act independently of the others. I'm also surprised to note that she has told Kyvin flat out that he is weaker than all the other Shaman and that he'd need 'help' to change from his present form and go back to being a human. Somehow there's a plot twist in that statement, and I'm wondering if Danna is the secret helper? Or are Kyvin and Danna going to be at odds with each other because of Kyvin's independent actions? Is it possible that Danna may become 'collateral damage' from those actions? Are they going to be at odds, or are they going to work as partners against the other Shaman?

Yes, this has suddenly gotten very interesting, since I can see dozens of possible plot twists possibly developing, just from the shadowfox's short conversation with Kyvin, let alone the other changes Chapter 14 brought. Nicely done Fel !